The question is: What kind of world does Parados live in?
Parados? Most of us wonder more about you!
HokieBird wrote:parados wrote:okie wrote:In Whitewater, crimes were committed and people went to prison to serve time. As usual, Clinton skated.
Wow. what a world okie must live in. He thinks people went to jail for Whitewater. I wonder which mythical persons went to which mythical jails for a crime concerning Whitewater.
Not one person went to jail for any crime associated with Whitewater okie. Here is the IC's report.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/whitewater_032002.html There were no indictments for crimes associated with Whitewater. There were no convictions for crimes associated with Whitewater. But if you want to believe things that aren't true. I guess we can't stop you. Libby was convicted of a crime. That doesn't make him innocent in the real world but in your world of up is down it seems it does.
Susan McDougal and Jim Guy Tucker were both convicted of crimes associated with Whitewater. McDougal was pardoned by Clinton on 1/20/01.
Sure, and Libby was convicted of crimes associated with administration lies leading up to the war.
No one was convicted of crimes for Whitewater. Crimes "related" to the Whitewater investigation are not the same thing as crimes stemming from criminal activity in Whitewater activities.
From the IC report
Quote:III. PROSECUTION OF FRAUDULENT SCHEME CONCERNING $825,000
MADISON GUARANTY LOAN AND RELATED CMS LOANS.
Regulatory Independent Counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. extensively investigated a series of
related transactions involving fraudulent loans from Madison Guaranty and David Hale's CMS.
The centerpiece of this scheme involved an $825,000 loan from Madison Guaranty to a nominee
of David Hale. Hale used the "profits" of this transaction to infuse $500,000 in capital into
CMS. Hale caused CMS to make four fraudulent loans to designees of Jim McDougal and Jim
Guy Tucker. This section details this fraudulent scheme and the numerous prosecutions that this
Office brought against the various participants.
CMS and Madison Guaranty are NOT Whitewater. No one of any intelligence would argue that they are. The IC didn't argue that they were.
Quote:A. Factual Overview of the Fraudulent Scheme.
1. Introduction.
Beginning in the fall of 1985 and into the spring of 1986, Jim McDougal, David Hale,
and Jim Guy Tucker planned and executed an illegal scheme involving Madison Guaranty, CMS,
and other entities and people. The scheme cost Madison Guaranty more than $1.8 million and
cost CMS more than $500,000 -- costs ultimately shouldered by the federal taxpayers. The
scheme grew in part out of the McDougals' need for funding to take care of various financial
pressures they were then facing. Jim McDougal told Hale he needed a loan from CMS to "clean
up some things" for himself and Madison Guaranty, as well as for "the political family."
Hale said he met with McDougal and Tucker in the fall of 1985 to discuss a possible loan
for McDougal. Hale's CMS, a federally insured Small Business Investment Corporation
("SBIC"), was limited to $150,000 in lending per individual, and had capital between $700,000
and $800,000 available for lending, which McDougal concluded was insufficient for his
purposes. He proposed they provide additional money for CMS, which was an attractive
prospect because the capital would be matched by the Small Business Administration ("SBA")
The judge that imposed the 30 month jail sentence on Libby will stick; the judge will not soften or reverse his decision. Only the president can commute that sentence.
"Whitewater" came to mean alot more than the land subdivision, Parados. Hopefully, we won't have to list all the crimes connected to this deal, in Arkansas and beyond? To date, I know of no other crime convictions connected to the Valerie Plame affair besides the Libby conviction, for simply lying during the investigation.
parados wrote:No one was convicted of crimes for Whitewater. Crimes "related" to the Whitewater investigation are not the same thing as crimes stemming from criminal activity in Whitewater activities.
That's not what you originally said, though. This is the part of your statement to which I was referring with my answer.
Quote:Not one person went to jail for any crime associated with Whitewater okie. There were no indictments for crimes associated with Whitewater. There were no convictions for crimes associated with Whitewater
.
You are clearly wrong.
Steven Smith
Quote:4. The Fraudulent CMS Loan to Steve Smith.
Hale made the second of the four subject CMS loans to Stephen Smith d/b/a The
Communication Company, on February 21, 1986. Smith was a partner with McDougal in
Madison Bank and Trust and later a partner with McDougal and Tucker in a land development
that was financed by the Worthen Bank.
Nothing about Whitewater there.
Fitzhugh
Quote:The criminal information against Fitzhugh charged him with one misdemeanor offense of bribing
Hale in violation of 18 U.S.C. ยง 215. On January 3, 1995, Chief Judge Reasoner sentenced
Matthews to sixteen months imprisonment followed by one year of supervised release.
Nope, not whitewater.
Palmer
Quote:According to Hale, to increase CMS 's capital, it was agreed that Madison Guaranty
would finance the purchase of property in which Hale had an interest. The property was to be
bought by a nominee at an inflated price, thus netting a large "profit" for Hale who, in turn,
would put his "profit" into CMS, which, multiplied by the SBA's additional funding, would
increase Hale's ability to lend to others. The loans by CMS would be structured so that
McDougal's and Tucker's roles were hidden....
To justify a loan that large, Hale, with William Watt's help, secured fraudulent
appraisals that greatly overvalued the properties by Robert Palmer, a Little Rock appraiser.
Nope, the property Palmer overvalued had nothing to do with Whitewater.
Quote:* Webster Hubbell pleaded guilty to two felony charges of defrauding the Rose Law Firm and served 18 months of a 21-month sentence;
Read that one yourself and tell me what it has to do with Whitewater.
Hale was convicted for defrauding the SBA
Ainley
Quote:3. Ainley's Admissions and Prosecution.
On June 21, 1994, agents assigned to Fiske's office interviewed Ainley, the former PCB
president.338 He admitted to having pulled a CTR for the November 1990 $22,500 withdrawal,
advising the agents of Lindsey's role.339 In a second interview on July 5, 1994, Ainley also told
the agents of his having not filed the May 1990 CTR for the $30,000 withdrawal.340 Again,
Ainley described Lindsey's role and also that of both Branscum and Hill.341 This Office also
questioned Lindsey, Branscum, and Hill.342 All three denied having done anything unlawful, and
denied knowledge of PCB's failure to file CTRs.
On February 28, 1995, a federal grand jury indicted Ainley on charges relating to the two failures to file CTRs and conspiring to do the same.
I don't see "Whitewater" anywhere in that conviction.
Your article is getting some facts very wrong..
Quote:* Appraiser Charles Matthews was sentenced to 28 months in prison, serving 16;
Matthews was an attorney, not an appraiser.
Quote:Hale had conspired with two other Little Rock attorneys --
Charles Matthews and Eugene Fitzhugh -- to defraud the Small Business Administration
From CBS News:
14 Convictions and 2 aquittals according to this article.
Caught In The Whitewater Net
WASHINGTON, May 19, 1998
Whitewater prosecutors cast such a wide net in Arkansas that they yielded a good-sized catch, even though the big fish seem to have gotten away.
The prime quarry of investigators, who started work in 1994, were President Clinton and his wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton. Mr. Clinton was cleared of any wrongdoing by special prosecutor Kenneth Starr in November and Mrs. Clinton has not been charged.
Our Full Coverage
of this Ongoing Story
Nevertheless, the investigation resulted in 14 convictions and two acquittals. The last six indictments, handed down in April, were dismissed by a judge in July.
Caught in the Whitewater net were:
Webster Hubbell. A Clinton friend from Arkansas and former law partner of Mrs. Clinton, Hubbell held the number three job in the Justice Department when the Whitewater probe began. He pleaded guilty on Dec. 6, 1994, to mail fraud and tax evasion and admitted stealing almost $400,000 from his clients and partners in Little Rock's Rose Law Firm. He was sentenced to 21 months in jail in a plea-bargain deal in which he agreed to cooperate with investigators. He has reportedly provided prosecutors with little information, while at the same time working at a variety of jobs obtained for him by friends of Mr. Clinton. This has led to accusations that Hubbell's silence was bought and to new indictments, announced April 30, accusing Hubbell, his wife, his lawyer and his tax accountant of tax evasion. These have been dismissed. But Hubbell was arraigned Nov. 23 on a third set of charges filed by Starr.
James McDougal
James McDougal. A Clinton friend and Whitewater business partner, McDougal operated Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan. He was convicted in May 1996 of 18 felony counts related to bad loans made by Madison, which failed in the late 1980s at a considerable cost to taxpayers. McDougal agreed to cooperate with prosecutors against Mr. Clinton, but not until after his conviction. He died in prison in March.
Susan McDougal
Susan McDougal. With her former husband, James, Mrs. McDougal was a partner in the Whitewater land deal and in Madison Guaranty. She was convicted in 1996 of four felony fraud counts. She now is serving a two-year sentence. Unlike her ex-husband, she refused to cooperate with the Whitewater prosecutors and was sentenced to 18 months in jail on a civil contempt charge. She completed that jail term earlier this year, but still has refused to answer questions before a grand jury. On May 4, she was charged with criminal contempt and obstruction of justice.
Larry Kuca. A business associate of the McDougals, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor charges in connection with a federally backed loan. He was sentenced to probation and community service.
Robert Palmer. A land appraiser in Little Rock, Palmer was accused of filing false papers in connection with Madison Guaranty. He was sentenced to probation in 1994.
Jim Guy Tucker
Governor Jim Guy Tucker President Clinton's successor as Arkansas governor, Tucker resigned after his conviction in May 1996 on mail fraud and conspiracy charges. He was sentenced to probation. Facing separate conspiracy and income-tax evasion charges in connection with a sham bankruptcy and cable-television system sale, Tucker pleaded guilty and agreed to cooperate with investigators.
William Marks Former business partner of Tucker, Marks was charged in 1997 in connection with the sham bankruptcy with which he and Tucker allegedly tried to hide profits and avoid income tax on the sale of a cable television station. He agreed to cooperate with investigators. In return, several charges against him were dropped.
John Haley A lawyer for Tucker, Haley was accused with Marks and Tucker in the bankruptcy and cable TV station transactions. He pleaded guilty in February to a misdemeanor charge of failing to provide correct information to the government
Eugene Fitzhugh. A lawyer and businessman, Fitzhugh was one of the first to be accused in 1994. He pleaded guilty to trying to bribe Hale. In exchanged for his plea, he was sentenced to 28 months, and prosecutors dropped charges accusing him of conspiring to defraud the Small Business Administration.
Charles Matthews. An Arkansas businessman and colleague of Fitzhugh, Mathews was accused with Fitzhugh of trying to defraud the Small Business Administration. He pleaded guilty instead to misdemeanor bribery charges and was sentenced to 16 months.
David Hale
David Hale. A former municipal judge and businessman in Little Rock, Hale was the star witness in independent counsel Ken Starr's first Whitewater trial. He served a jail term for conspiring to defraud the SBA. With his guilty plea, he agreed to cooperate with investigators. He testified against the McDougals and has told prosecutors Mr. Clinton pressured him into making a suspect loa to Susan McDougal. Hale's testimony has come under question with reports that he obtained cash from a conservative group with ties to special Whitewater prosecutor Starr. Hale trial this summer on state charges was delayed by illness.
Stephen Smith. A former Clinton aide, Smith pleaded guilty in 1995 to lying about a federally backed loan he obtained from Hale.
Christopher Wade. An Arkansas businessman and real estate agent, Wade pleaded guilty to bankruptcy fraud in 1995.
Neal Ainley. An Arkansas banker, Ainley pleaded guilty in 1995 to concealing cash payments to Mr. Clinton's campaign.
Susan McDougal and Hale still face new charges.
Charges were dismissed in July against Hubbell, his wife, Suzanna Hubbell, Michael Schaufele, and Charles Owen.
Hubbell's wife and a Clinton appointee in the Interior Department, Mrs. Hubbell was accused with her husband of trying to evade taxes on her income.
A Little Rock accountant and friend of the Hubbells, Schaufele was accused of preparing and filing several years of false income-tax returns for the Hubbells and helping the Hubbells set up bank accounts and dummy corporations to conceal their income. Owen, an attorney, also was accused of helping to set up the bank accounts and corporations.
A judge ruled in July that because Hubbell provided prosecutors with the documents on which the indictments were based, he was protected by the Fifth Amendment from prosecution on tax charges.
Bruce Lindsey
Two Arkansas bankers, Robert Hill and Herbert Branscum were accused of four felonies in a conspiracy to conceal the funneling of large amounts of cash into Mr. Clinton's 1992 presidential campaign. The jury deadlocked in a mistrial in 1996 and prosecutors decided not to retry them.
White House adviser Bruce Lindsey, who was treasurer of the campaign, was named an unindicted co-conspirator in the Branscum and Hill case.
HokieBird wrote:parados wrote:No one was convicted of crimes for Whitewater. Crimes "related" to the Whitewater investigation are not the same thing as crimes stemming from criminal activity in Whitewater activities.
That's not what you originally said, though. This is the part of your statement to which I was referring with my answer.
Quote:Not one person went to jail for any crime associated with Whitewater okie. There were no indictments for crimes associated with Whitewater. There were no convictions for crimes associated with Whitewater
.
You are clearly wrong.
Since I am clearly wrong tell us which crime specifically was associated with Whitewater. People associated with Whitewater were convicted but the crimes for which they were convicted were NOT associated with Whitewater.
You can not find a single crime associated with Whitewater. They were all for actions NOT associated with Whitewater. If anyone was convicted for a crime associated with Whitewater then you must admit Libby was convicted for crimes associated with lying about the lead up to the war. (Something I don't agree with but it is the same kind of leap that must be made.)
okie wrote:"Whitewater" came to mean alot more than the land subdivision, Parados. Hopefully, we won't have to list all the crimes connected to this deal, in Arkansas and beyond? To date, I know of no other crime convictions connected to the Valerie Plame affair besides the Libby conviction, for simply lying during the investigation.
I see, now you are going to change the meaning of the term after you have made a foolish statement.
What else could we expect from someone so partisan. When the facts don't fit your world view just change the facts.
Your world is certainly becoming clearer to the rest of us.
HokieBird wrote:
You are clearly wrong.
Just to save you the effort, Hokiebird, Parados will never, never admit he was wrong. He must be a lawyer, and he will parse every word down to the gnat's hair.
Parados, I have not changed the meaning of Whitewater. Simply read up on it and you will find out the meaning as the word was used through time. I did not do it. The media and common usage did it.
Well, Parados may "parse every word down to the gnat's hair," but your's grows into elephants.
parados wrote:HokieBird wrote:parados wrote:okie wrote:In Whitewater, crimes were committed and people went to prison to serve time. As usual, Clinton skated.
Wow. what a world okie must live in. He thinks people went to jail for Whitewater. I wonder which mythical persons went to which mythical jails for a crime concerning Whitewater.
Not one person went to jail for any crime associated with Whitewater okie. Here is the IC's report.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/whitewater_032002.html There were no indictments for crimes associated with Whitewater. There were no convictions for crimes associated with Whitewater. But if you want to believe things that aren't true. I guess we can't stop you. Libby was convicted of a crime. That doesn't make him innocent in the real world but in your world of up is down it seems it does.
Susan McDougal and Jim Guy Tucker were both convicted of crimes associated with Whitewater. McDougal was pardoned by Clinton on 1/20/01.
Sure, and Libby was convicted of crimes associated with administration lies leading up to the war.
No one was convicted of crimes for Whitewater. Crimes "related" to the Whitewater investigation are not the same thing as crimes stemming from criminal activity in Whitewater activities.
According to
*groan* wikipedia *groan*:
Convictions
Ultimately the Clintons were never charged, but 14 other persons were convicted of more than 40 crimes, including a sitting Governor who was forced to resign.
* Jim Guy Tucker: Governor of Arkansas at the time, forced to resign (fraud, 3 counts)
* John Haley: attorney for Jim Guy Tucker (tax fraud)
* William J. Marks Sr.: Jim Guy Tucker business partner (conspiracy)
* Stephen Smith: former Governor Clinton aide (conspiracy to misapply funds)
* Webster Hubbell: Clinton political supporter; Rose Law Firm partner (embezzlement, fraud)
* Jim McDougal: banker, Clinton political supporter: (18 felonies, varied)
* Susan McDougal: Clinton political supporter (multiple fraud, , contempt)
* David Hale: banker, Clinton political supporter: (conspiracy, fraud)
* Neal Ainley: Perry County Bank president (embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign)
* Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker (multiple loan fraud) Bill Clinton pardoned.
* Larry Kuca: Madison real estate agent (multiple loan fraud)
* Robert Palmer: Madison appraiser (conspiracy)
* John Latham: Madison Bank CEO (bank fraud)
* Eugene Fitzhugh: Whitewater defendant (multiple bribery)
* Charles Matthews (Whitewater): Whitewater defendant (bribery)
Why try to play off whitewater like you are? It's stupid.
Quote:Or do I need to ask your opinion on Clinton?
Cycloptichorn
I asked this to Okie, who answered:
Quote:
In Whitewater, crimes were committed and people went to prison to serve time. As usual, Clinton skated.
But, Whitewater isn't what I was asking about. What I was asking about was Clinton's impeachment trial, where he was found guilty of lying to the grand jury when there was no underlying crime.
Libby doesn't deserve to be pardoned. It doesn't matter if he broke the law before the investigation or during the course of the investigation. He is equally responsible for upholding the law at all times.
This whole conversation about Whitewater is immaterial to the case at hand, and really, tired ground.
Cycloptichorn
I quote directly from the IC report and you tell ME to read up about it?
Who is the better source when it comes to the crimes and why they were charged, the Independent Counsel or Wikipedia? You guys seem to have made YOUR choice.
Did you even bother to read your own source Parados?
There is an entire appendix about the prosecutions.
http://icreport.access.gpo.gov/final/v1app5.pdf
Are you going to simply admit you were wrong and be done with this?
There may be some disagreement, in that many of the people listed in the Wikipedia article were charged and convicted but never did jail time - which was Parados' contention.
Cycloptichorn
No, that was not his contention.
