Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 09:48 am
Phoenix,
You will get no argument from me there. As long as the various choices do not include abortion.
;-)
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 09:53 am
Intrepid- And there is where we differ. I don't like abortions (or any other medical procedures) either, but in some cases, it is necessary for the emotional well being of the girl or woman.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 12:32 pm
I agree with Phoenix.

Raising the child is not always a realistic option. Adoption is not always a realistic option.
Given that there are always unwanted pregnancies; ALL the options should be available. This allows a woman/girl to make the best possible choice for her circumstances.

Some folks find it morally repugnant to give a child away for adoption. Can you imagine if it were illegal to do so? wow. That would be screwy.
And hey; before anyone goes and points out that abortion and adoption are two different things: don't bother. I already know.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 12:38 pm
real life wrote:

Let's see, the under-age girl meets up with a boy at at party and winds up pregant. She shouldn't have gone there you say and you want to give her an out.


Correction. I didn't say she shouldn't have gone there. And the appropriate phrasing of the last half of that is "and you don't want to force her to have the child."

Quote:
Currently, the way it works is that the abortionist typically does not report this case of statutory rape, and violates most state laws requiring that he do so, and gets off free while pocketing a fee.


This is documented somewhere? Or are you pulling this "typical" either out of thin air or basing it on one or two instances of abuse?

Quote:
The rapist then is also free from detection and is free to prey on other under-age girls.


In your scenario.

Quote:
The girl is victimized a second time by a society which lays the burden of this on her alone and steers her toward putting to death an innocent third party.


Nonsense. The only form of victimization she would most likely endure would come from the religious zealots and right-wing conservatists that would force her to keep this constant reminder of the rape.

Quote:
The unborn pays the ultimate price for the rapist's crime and dies at the hands of the well paid abortionist.


The fetus would pay nothing, as it most likely has no concept of what "life" is nor of anything beyond whatever fluid it is surrounded by. And you'd prefer to have underpaid surgeons?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 03:36 pm
flushd wrote:
I agree with Phoenix.

Raising the child is not always a realistic option. Adoption is not always a realistic option.
Given that there are always unwanted pregnancies; ALL the options should be available. This allows a woman/girl to make the best possible choice for her circumstances.

Some folks find it morally repugnant to give a child away for adoption. Can you imagine if it were illegal to do so? wow. That would be screwy.
And hey; before anyone goes and points out that abortion and adoption are two different things: don't bother. I already know.


Anyone who could find it "morally repugnant" to give a child up for adoption and would prefer that it be exterminated does not know the meaning of "moral". They are thinking only of themselves and trying to publicly save face by hiding the existence of the pregnancy, in the process the unborn loses her life to save the mother any inconvenience.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 03:46 pm
flushd wrote:
I agree with Phoenix.

Raising the child is not always a realistic option. Adoption is not always a realistic option.
Given that there are always unwanted pregnancies; ALL the options should be available. This allows a woman/girl to make the best possible choice for her circumstances.

Some folks find it morally repugnant to give a child away for adoption. Can you imagine if it were illegal to do so? wow. That would be screwy.
And hey; before anyone goes and points out that abortion and adoption are two different things: don't bother. I already know.


Some people find it morally repugnant to condone the termination of a life for, usually, selfish reasons.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 05:32 pm
What the "pro-life" follks seem to be avoiding is facing the consequences of the rules they wish to introduce.

Let me give an example too.

A girl is 15. Her father has been having sex with her since she was ten. Her father has assured her that he will kill her if anyone ever knows. She falls pregnant...she knows the child is the product of incest and will have an abortion. Sure, even those against abortion would probably agree to allow it...if she tells everybody it's her father's !!!! If abortion is illegal, she will still find a way...at much greater risk to her life.

Those of you who made it illegal will throw your hands in the air and say it's all the fathers fault, which of course it is....but you can't avoid the responsibilty of the risks you force her to take with your laws.

Some of you would say every life is sacred and the baby should be born and the daughter/mother forced to raise it....but no, somehow I am the one who is morally corrupt....go figure Rolling Eyes

(go on real life, ask me to produce reliable figures of how many fathers ever got their daughters pregnant and nobody ever found out)
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 05:46 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Eorl,
Do I understand your rational correctly? 14 year old girls may become pregnant. Rather than look at the cause of the pregnancy and work on that, we will just give the errant girl the opportunity to dispose of the resulting life that has been created. After all, nobody has seen this life so why not just get rid of it. Then, the 14 year old girl can go and get pregnant again because there is an out.

Where are your values? Where are your morals? Don't fix the cause, give a way to escape the consequences.

Put the responsiblility where it belongs.


My morals and my values tell me that it is cruel and ignorant to create an environment that requires a 14 year old girl to track down an illegal backyard abortion clinic and withhold proper medical care from her. Your morals and values tell you she deserves death for the crime of her pregnancy...but hey, if a book says a god is on your side, then yours must be better.

Do what you can to prevent unwanted pregnancy by all means (and you better include contraception and the morning after pill) but don't jettison your responsibility to find a realistic solution if it happens anyway.

How dare you question my morals and values ? I value life as much if not more than you, which is why I would save a dog before an 8 week foetus, only my idea of what constitutes a valuable life is not twisted by ridiculous church propaganda.

So many smug christians all soooo comfortable in their certainty of everything.....unquestionable right and wrong, black and white morals....standards written by gods....if only you could see how twisted and sick you look from where I stand.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 05:54 pm
Abortions will occur whether they are legal or not. Before abortions were legal people who could afford it would leave the country, people who couldn't went to the local butcher. Legalizing abortions did not create the problem of unwanted pregnancy and abortions it only made it safer.

There will always be young girls who would rather face *anything* than face the wrath of their parents, there will always be women who cannot fathom the idea of pregnancy, labor and delivery, even with the option of adoption. Criminalizing these girls and women won't stop abortion it will only put the back alley creeps back in business.

I've made it a point of staying off this thread because I don't think anyone ever changes their mind on this topic but I really don't think girls/women give no thought to preventing pregnancy because they can simply do away with an unwanted fetus. The emotional baggage with having an abortion is too great to consider using it as a primary method of birth control.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:18 pm
Eorl Wrote:

Quote:
What the "pro-life" follks seem to be avoiding is facing the consequences of the rules they wish to introduce.

Let me give an example too.

A girl is 15. Her father has been having sex with her since she was ten. Her father has assured her that he will kill her if anyone ever knows. She falls pregnant...she knows the child is the product of incest and will have an abortion. Sure, even those against abortion would probably agree to allow it...if she tells everybody it's her father's !!!! If abortion is illegal, she will still find a way...at much greater risk to her life.

Those of you who made it illegal will throw your hands in the air and say it's all the fathers fault, which of course it is....but you can't avoid the responsibilty of the risks you force her to take with your laws.

Some of you would say every life is sacred and the baby should be born and the daughter/mother forced to raise it....but no, somehow I am the one who is morally corrupt....go figure

(go on real life, ask me to produce reliable figures of how many fathers ever got their daughters pregnant and nobody ever found out)


Now you have entered into my world, Eorl. This is something I can speak to directly because of my experience.

I was raped by my father and yes, he threatened to kill me if I told. Also, I became pregnant. And, I was not a Christian at the time. I never for one second thought of abortion! Not one second. I would have the child and raise the child and love the child. That was my only thought. However, at five months pregnant I lost the child. From the second I knew I was pregnant, I knew I was carrying a child, not a fetus.

I would be very interested in hearing just how many times this happens and no one knows. I would be very interested in hearing how many backstreet abortions are performed in these cases.

I know women that have had multiple abortions because they were not responsible enough to get pregnant in the first place. Making something legal to help regulate it IMO never works. It just makes it legal.

Eorl Wrote:

Quote:
My morals and my values tell me that it is cruel and ignorant to create an environment that requires a 14 year old girl to track down an illegal backyard abortion clinic and withhold proper medical care from her. Your morals and values tell you she deserves death for the crime of her pregnancy...but hey, if a book says a god is on your side, then yours must be better.

Do what you can to prevent unwanted pregnancy by all means (and you better include contraception and the morning after pill) but don't jettison your responsibility to find a realistic solution if it happens anyway.

How dare you question my morals and values ? I value life as much if not more than you, which is why I would save a dog before an 8 week foetus, only my idea of what constitutes a valuable life is not twisted by ridiculous church propaganda.

So many smug christians all soooo comfortable in their certainty of everything.....unquestionable right and wrong, black and white morals....standards written by gods....if only you could see how twisted and sick you look from where I stand.



Track down an illegal backyard abortion clinic? How many illegal backyard abortion clincs are there? I would think this is a very small percentage, but would be more than willing to see some figures on this.

Why do you think Christians are smug? Because we believe what we believe and we stand up for that? We are not calling you smug for standing up for what you believe Eorl. What good are beliefs if you don't stand up for them?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:43 pm
There are 46 million abortions every year, 20 million of those are illegal.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:49 pm
Eorl wrote:
There are 46 million abortions every year, 20 million of those are illegal.

Eorl,

How many of those 20 million are from cases of rape? How many are from cases of medical necessity? How many are from incestuous circumstances? How many of them are from those under 18?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:52 pm
Eorl wrote:
There are 46 million abortions every year, 20 million of those are illegal.

For the sake of this discussion, let's limit our stats to the US and not the world.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:53 pm
Momma, I'm very sorry for your situation but I still think if you had reacted differently to your pregnancy you should have had a safe and legal solution available to you.

I don't have all the statistics but the internet has plenty of "pro-life" and "pro-choice" statistics to choose from, often with very different figures.

Maybe this site is balanced and accurate:

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

..but who can say?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:55 pm
Eorl,

This really frightens me!

American Abortion Statistics:

47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions

This would seem to me to be more of convenience than cases of rape, etc. What do you think?

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.
Abortion Statistics - Using Contraception (U.S.)

It would seem that very, very few are performed due to fetal health risk or maternal health risk. What does that say to you?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:58 pm
dys why?

I'm not in the United States.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 07:02 pm
yes MA there are women who have abortions for reasons of convenience as well as other reasons. There are also women who smoke crack when they're pregnant, drink gallons of booze when they're pregnant, over-eat when they're pregnant and contract VD when they're pregnant. There are also women who have full term healthy babies because they were responsible women. Let's make a law that only responsible healthy oriented women be allowed to get pregnant. What say ye to that?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 07:07 pm
dys Wrote:

Quote:
yes MA there are women who have abortions for reasons of convenience as well as other reasons. There are also women who smoke crack when they're pregnant, drink gallons of booze when they're pregnant, over-eat when they're pregnant and contract VD when they're pregnant. There are also women who have full term healthy babies because they were responsible women. Let's make a law that only responsible healthy oriented women be allowed to get pregnant. What say ye to that?


That would be a bit http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/offtopic.gif

I just think those American statistics kind of blow the doors off the idea that most abortions are not performed for convenience.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 07:08 pm
Of topic?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 07:10 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Of topic?
btw you are beginning to wear out your new skill with emoticons.
0 Replies
 
 

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