ABORTION.......

(oh and it has a bearing because outlawing abortion does indeed lead to the deaths of 14year old girls)

Yes I KNOW we should try to prevent both, but that's beside the point because we don't.

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Eorl wrote:

Intrepid, you are right and I apologise.

I think I did, however, answer the question in a variety of ways.

I think you disregard the life of a 14 year old girl if you outlaw abortion...because you are creating an environment that would (and has) led to the deaths of many.

Eorl,

Please show statistics from a reliable source how many 14 year old girls died each year due to abortion being illegal.

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Maybe when you answer my question real life.

Given no other choice, which would you save?

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from a website I would not recommend and don't claim to be a reliable source:

"ABORTION WAS criminalized throughout the U.S. between the late 1800s and 1973. But during that time, millions of women sought and obtained abortions anyway.
Of these, tens upon tens of thousands died from illegal abortions or complications arising from them. One 1932 study estimated that illegal abortions or complications from them were the cause of death for 15,000 women each year. Current, more conservative, estimates of the death toll still stand at between 5,000 and 10,000 deaths per year.

Some of these deaths were the result of the abortions themselves, but many more were from infection and hemorrhaging afterward. Because of the fear of being punished and socially ostracized, many women--and their doctors--kept their real condition a secret.

The right wing has gone on an organized campaign to discredit such statistics, going as far to claim that deaths from illegal abortion were "just" a few dozen a year--and that the anecdotes of items such as coat hangers being inserted into women's bodies to cause an abortion are false. In reality, coat hangers were just one horror among many during the years of illegal abortion."

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Eorl wrote:

from a website I would not recommend and don't claim to be a reliable source:

"ABORTION WAS criminalized throughout the U.S. between the late 1800s and 1973. But during that time, millions of women sought and obtained abortions anyway.
Of these, tens upon tens of thousands died from illegal abortions or complications arising from them. One 1932 study estimated that illegal abortions or complications from them were the cause of death for 15,000 women each year. Current, more conservative, estimates of the death toll still stand at between 5,000 and 10,000 deaths per year.

Some of these deaths were the result of the abortions themselves, but many more were from infection and hemorrhaging afterward. Because of the fear of being punished and socially ostracized, many women--and their doctors--kept their real condition a secret.

The right wing has gone on an organized campaign to discredit such statistics, going as far to claim that deaths from illegal abortion were "just" a few dozen a year--and that the anecdotes of items such as coat hangers being inserted into women's bodies to cause an abortion are false. In reality, coat hangers were just one horror among many during the years of illegal abortion."

Gee, I wonder why you cannot recommend Michelle Bollinger's article from The Socialist Worker[/u] as a conduit of truth?

Then you shamelessly quote it anyhow.

Why can't you just admit that you are regurgitating propaganda?

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Where's the answer to my question real life?

I have no doubt that SOME women died as a direct result of abortion being made illegal.

Come on, let's get out the scales...how many women would you sacrifice to save how many foetuses?

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Ok so this topic is far to long for me to do anything other then say what I think on the subject matter. I have always been prochoice in my thoughts on abortion as i've always been able to see that situation which waranted the termination of a life, the right to decide that the world would be better off not bringing a life into terrible circumstances. Hell would you want to be brought into an existance of the worst thing you can imagine? Well no, who would. . At the same time you have to ask yourself whether its your place to decide what circumstances warant the existance of being. What is the best way for someone to become? Who are you to know what should make for a striveing soul, what in this world defines good. I changed my view on this when I wondered, would I be better off, would the world be better off should I have been snuffed. **** I know I would have suffered much less, the shitty hand god must deal every now and then still must be dealt. But ****, hehe butt ****, I know that one just pissed off some religious fanatics, but anyways, How can you be the one to decide what should be and what shouldn't, nature has a way of exploreing extremes and in some backasswards way showing one extreme in the existance of another. Hell if I haven't explored a nitch in my shithole of an amazing ly fucked up existance

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Eorl wrote:

Where's the answer to my question real life?

I have no doubt that SOME women died as a direct result of abortion being made illegal.

Come on, let's get out the scales...how many women would you sacrifice to save how many foetuses?

Yes probably some did.

And some thieves die as a result of doing something illegal too. Is the answer to make theft legal?

There is no comparing a woman willfully risks her life by making the choice to visit an abortionist (legal or not) and dies occasionally, with the unborn who does NOT make the choice to risk her life and dies 100% of the time in an abortion.

You've been listening to propaganda too long if you think there is any valid comparison.

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Still no answer then real life?

Given the choice to save a 14yo girl or an 8 week foetus...which do you save and why?

I think, of the two of us, I respect human life more than you. Your "willful risk" statement demonstrates that clearly.

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Eorl wrote:

Still no answer then real life?

Given the choice to save a 14yo girl or an 8 week foetus...which do you save and why?

I think, of the two of us, I respect human life more than you. Your "willful risk" statement demonstrates that clearly.

Eorl,

I think you are being a bit unfair. I can't, and won't speak for Intrepid because he speaks very well for himself.

I have stated that yes, I believe abortion should be banned. However, I have also stated that in some cases, I could UNDERSTAND (caps for emphasis only) an abortion, such as the mother's life being saved, being performed. I still would not condone it but I could understand it.

What you and some others seem to miss in my point (and others) is that the brunt of the responsibility for the sensed reasons for abortion is not being placed where it needs to be placed. We must all be responsible for our own actions. Yes, there are cases where this is impossible due to rape, etc. But, why must an innocent child suffer for what someone else has done? I feel society has gotten too much to the "what's right for me" point. There are basic rights and wrongs for EVERYONE (caps for emphasis only). Society seems to want to change that. Just because something becomes more acceptable or right according to society, does not mean it IS acceptable or right.

Deler,

You seem to be having a bad day. You seem pretty angry. I am sorry. I hope it gets better for you. But, Deler, God is not the one responsible for the trials in your life. He is the great comforter.

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Eorl,
Do I understand your rational correctly? 14 year old girls may become pregnant. Rather than look at the cause of the pregnancy and work on that, we will just give the errant girl the opportunity to dispose of the resulting life that has been created. After all, nobody has seen this life so why not just get rid of it. Then, the 14 year old girl can go and get pregnant again because there is an out.

Where are your values? Where are your morals? Don't fix the cause, give a way to escape the consequences.

Put the responsiblility where it belongs.

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Intrepid wrote:

Put the responsiblility where it belongs.

Intrepid- What do you think is the responsibility of the boy who got the girl pregnant?

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Intrepid wrote:

Eorl,
Do I understand your rational correctly? 14 year old girls may become pregnant. Rather than look at the cause of the pregnancy and work on that, we will just give the errant girl the opportunity to dispose of the resulting life that has been created. After all, nobody has seen this life so why not just get rid of it. Then, the 14 year old girl can go and get pregnant again because there is an out.

Where are your values? Where are your morals? Don't fix the cause, give a way to escape the consequences.

Put the responsiblility where it belongs.

Just to clarify. . . are you then advocating that if a 14 year old girl was raped, that she should be made to give birth? That perhaps she went to some party somewhere that she shouldn't have, but it was her choice so we shouldn't allow her an out?

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Eorl wrote:

Still no answer then real life?

Given the choice to save a 14yo girl or an 8 week foetus...which do you save and why?

I think, of the two of us, I respect human life more than you. Your "willful risk" statement demonstrates that clearly.

You missed the answer entirely. The woman is able to avoid the risk altogether by not going to the abortuary.

The unborn is not able to avoid the risk.

To say that you respect human life, in light of your earlier statement that you would save a dog's life over an unborn child's, is only a function of your self delusion.

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Questioner wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Eorl,
Do I understand your rational correctly? 14 year old girls may become pregnant. Rather than look at the cause of the pregnancy and work on that, we will just give the errant girl the opportunity to dispose of the resulting life that has been created. After all, nobody has seen this life so why not just get rid of it. Then, the 14 year old girl can go and get pregnant again because there is an out.

Where are your values? Where are your morals? Don't fix the cause, give a way to escape the consequences.

Put the responsiblility where it belongs.

Just to clarify. . . are you then advocating that if a 14 year old girl was raped, that she should be made to give birth? That perhaps she went to some party somewhere that she shouldn't have, but it was her choice so we shouldn't allow her an out?

Let's see, the under-age girl meets up with a boy at at party and winds up pregant. She shouldn't have gone there you say and you want to give her an out.

Currently, the way it works is that the abortionist typically does not report this case of statutory rape, and violates most state laws requiring that he do so, and gets off free while pocketing a fee.

The rapist then is also free from detection and is free to prey on other under-age girls.

The girl is victimized a second time by a society which lays the burden of this on her alone and steers her toward putting to death an innocent third party.

The unborn pays the ultimate price for the rapist's crime and dies at the hands of the well paid abortionist.

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Questioner wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Eorl,
Do I understand your rational correctly? 14 year old girls may become pregnant. Rather than look at the cause of the pregnancy and work on that, we will just give the errant girl the opportunity to dispose of the resulting life that has been created. After all, nobody has seen this life so why not just get rid of it. Then, the 14 year old girl can go and get pregnant again because there is an out.

Where are your values? Where are your morals? Don't fix the cause, give a way to escape the consequences.

Put the responsiblility where it belongs.

Just to clarify. . . are you then advocating that if a 14 year old girl was raped, that she should be made to give birth? That perhaps she went to some party somewhere that she shouldn't have, but it was her choice so we shouldn't allow her an out?

I didn't say raped. YOU did. That is a totally different scenerio and would come under a different jurisdiction entirely. Rolling Eyes

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Put the responsiblility where it belongs.

Intrepid- What do you think is the responsibility of the boy who got the girl pregnant?

Interesting question since you and many others claim that abortion is a woman's right and nobody, including the father, can tell her what to do with her body. Are you suggesting double standards now?

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Intrepid wrote:

14 year old girls may become pregnant. Rather than look at the cause of the pregnancy and work on that, we will just give the errant girl the opportunity to dispose of the resulting life that has been created. After all, nobody has seen this life so why not just get rid of it. Then, the 14 year old girl can go and get pregnant again because there is an out.

Quote:

Interesting question since you and many others claim that abortion is a woman's right and nobody, including the father, can tell her what to do with her body. Are you suggesting double standards now?

Intrepid- Absolutely not. From what you have written, I have gotten the impression, from your description of the girl as "errant" that you are placing the blame on her, and expect her to have the responsibility of completing the pregnancy, and having the resulting child. Apparently, from what you have written, I can conclude that it is you who have the double standard.

I am just asking you to take YOUR rationale to its logical conclusion.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
14 year old girls may become pregnant. Rather than look at the cause of the pregnancy and work on that, we will just give the errant girl the opportunity to dispose of the resulting life that has been created. After all, nobody has seen this life so why not just get rid of it. Then, the 14 year old girl can go and get pregnant again because there is an out.

Quote:
Interesting question since you and many others claim that abortion is a woman's right and nobody, including the father, can tell her what to do with her body. Are you suggesting double standards now?

Intrepid- Absolutely not. From what you have written, I have gotten the impression, from your description of the girl as "errant" that you are placing the blame on her, and expect her to have the responsibility of completing the pregnancy, and having the resulting child. Apparently, from what you have written, I can conclude that it is you who have the double standard.

I am just asking you to take YOUR rationale to its logical conclusion.

What I am saying is that measures should be taken to prevent a pregnancy in the first place. The rape scenario is a different matter. I am saying, as I have said before, that abortion should not be a form of birth control. The father is no less responsible than the girl. Why do I have a double standard? Blame would not even come into it if responsible sex practices were adhered to in the first place. We are not living in the 1930's anymore. There is no difference if the girl is 14 or 34.

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Intrepid wrote:

What I am saying is that measures should be taken to prevent a pregnancy in the first place. The rape scenario is a different matter. I am saying, as I have said before, that abortion should not be a form of birth control.

Oh, I agree. In the best of all possible worlds, 14 year olds would not be having sex. Abortion would not be used for birth control. Unfortunately, that is not the world we are living in.

I think, that over time, educating youngsters about the physical and emotional dangers of unprotected sex would go a long way in preventing some unwanted pregnancies. Teaching only abstinence, IMO, is totally unrealistic. I think that the whole concept of abstinence should be taught in the context of various choices.

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ABORTION.......

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