ABORTION.......

Eorl,
Sorry to disappoint you. It was not my intention to argue.

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Eorl Wrote:

Quote:

Intrepid

I'm sure it would be useful if you could make the effort to find the words.

It's difficult to argue with a superior condescending shake of the head...second time on this thread too.

Momma, no they have not been answered well enough. The paradox of an all seeing, all powerful, all caring god in the presence of human suffering has not been resolved to my knowledge. I'll agree to any two but all three is impossible.

Eorl,

I don't know about Intrepid, but I am sure that he takes just as great, if not greater, pains that I do to answer all of your questions. However, it is not often you accept those answers. So, for me, it does feel like I am beating my head against a brick wall, but that might be because of my frustration of not being able to explain things better.

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Eorl wrote:

OK, real life....

Could your god prevent a miscarriage if he wanted to?

Or is he one of the less powerful gods?

Could your god not know a miscarriage was happening?

Or is he one of the less knowledgeable gods?

Could your god have the both the knowledge and the power, but chooses not to prevent it?

Is he one of those gods who doesn't care that much?

Wait a minute....I think your god just put an answer in my head....my reception is a bit fuzzy (irregular use, you know)...something about mysterious ways and being preoccupied with wonders....

I've seen him choose not to prevent the death of a baby in the womb at 8 months....while throughout the rest of the hospital he was busy "blessing" lots of folks with beautiful healthy babies.

Clearly he can be blamed for both.... or neither. Which is it?

I thought you were going to offer proof that God causes miscarriages.

Where is your evidence?

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I have proved that the christian god (if you suppose he exists) consciously allows miscarriage to occur - in beings he is supposed to have designed himself.

If I designed a car that I knew was going to result in people being killed I would be held responsible for causing the deaths.

Why do you demand that I answer your questions while you ignore mine real life?

Logically, your god is responsible for babies being made and for babies dying...or neither. Which is it?

Clearly my answer is "neither". I'm hardly going to have evidence to the contrary. But your answer has to be "both".

Or do you say miscarriage is just a sad natural process but the birth of a child is a miracle for which he deserves to be thanked?

I just don't get it...because it isn't possible to get without multi-layered self deception and irrational justification on a grand scale!

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http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/bigeyedsmiley.gif

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Momma Angel wrote:

Eorl Wrote:

Quote:
Intrepid

I'm sure it would be useful if you could make the effort to find the words.

It's difficult to argue with a superior condescending shake of the head...second time on this thread too.

Momma, no they have not been answered well enough. The paradox of an all seeing, all powerful, all caring god in the presence of human suffering has not been resolved to my knowledge. I'll agree to any two but all three is impossible.

Eorl,

I don't know about Intrepid, but I am sure that he takes just as great, if not greater, pains that I do to answer all of your questions. However, it is not often you accept those answers. So, for me, it does feel like I am beating my head against a brick wall, but that might be because of my frustration of not being able to explain things better.

Momma, this is why it is so hard for people to agree about a subject like abortion. All of the basic things that you hold to be true and take for granted ....look nothing like truth to me...so all the decisions you make about things like the sanctity of life or the value of a human soul at the time of conception make even less sense.

Yet you want to legislate that I follow your rules about such about important matters...matters of life and death in fact...because you claim to know with certainty things that I do not know, things that I do NOT believe you really do know.

The answers I have been given have not been sufficient or backed up by fact or even decent logic....feeling stuff in your heart is not good enough when it comes to making laws for others.

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Eorl,

I understand what you are saying. But, you must realize how hard it is for me to understand how you cannot believe there is a God? That is, if that is what you belive.

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Momma, the best I can do is ask you to accept that it is just as difficult for me to imagine there are gods as it is for you to imagine that there are not.

I'm sure as you were growing up there were things you gradually came to realise were fairy tales even though other kids were still sure they were true? Feels just like that!

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Eorl wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Eorl Wrote:

Quote:
Intrepid

I'm sure it would be useful if you could make the effort to find the words.

It's difficult to argue with a superior condescending shake of the head...second time on this thread too.

Momma, no they have not been answered well enough. The paradox of an all seeing, all powerful, all caring god in the presence of human suffering has not been resolved to my knowledge. I'll agree to any two but all three is impossible.

Eorl,

I don't know about Intrepid, but I am sure that he takes just as great, if not greater, pains that I do to answer all of your questions. However, it is not often you accept those answers. So, for me, it does feel like I am beating my head against a brick wall, but that might be because of my frustration of not being able to explain things better.

.......Yet you want to legislate that I follow your rules about such about important matters...matters of life and death in fact...because you claim to know with certainty things that I do not know, things that I do NOT believe you really do know.........

Hi Eorl,

If you do not know for certain whether the unborn is a living human being or not, wouldn't the prudent course of action be to proceed as if she may be alive? Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be on the side of life?

If we are both to err, (for you say that no one knows for sure if the unborn is alive), should we not err so as to avoid causing death to one who may be alive?

If a firefighter came upon a burning building, would he proceed as if no one was inside, or as if some one may be?

If a policeman came across an accident, would he act toward the victim as if he may be alive, or as if he isn't?

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Eorl,

Yes, I understand that. The only difference between us is I never thought it was a fairy tale in the first place nor will I ever believe it is.

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real life, so you've decided to proceed as though I gave the answer you wanted?

All your logic is obviously true given a few starting points...which I won't give you.

You imply that the "life" of an 8 week old foetus is equal to the "life" of a 14 year old pregnant girl.

I do not.

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Eorl,

I am sure you have been asked and I am sure you gave an answer. However, I can't remember what it was. Can you tell me why it is you don't believe the 8 week old fetus is equal to the 14 year old pregnant girl?

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Just wondering what scale you use to determine the value of life at any given stage in development or age?

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Same question from you both, Intrepid and Momma.

I don't decide for myself, I trust doctors and scientists to tell me their best guesses about what seems reasonable to them (and of course, I prefer the opinion of those who are guided by facts rather than faiths)

I don't know about where you live but our family would mourn the accidental loss of a fourteen year old girl a great deal more than it would mourn the loss of an 8 week old foetus through miscarriage, although we would be sad...... but that is really quite subjective anyway.

Just a reminder.... don't get to thinking I'm in favour of abortion. I'm not. It's just that I'm less in favour of the consequences of preventing it entirely.

Intrepid, I sense a tone of righteous indignation at my callous disregard of human life...you should understand I see you the same way for your disregard of the life of the 14 year old girl to save the life of the foetus at all costs.

I think there is a reasonable, more human compromise to be made than outright abolition of abortion (as the law reflects in many countries)....and to be honest, I think Jesus would agree with ME !! Very Happy

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Eorl,
Your sense of my "righteous indignation" is just that, your sense. I was not critisizing you, I was asking a question. Just because we do not agree, does not mean that we cannot be civil. Why do you think that I disregard the life of the 14 year old girl? I value all life regardless of the age. I am just wondering how you place the value on any age or stage of development.

You did not answer my question, but rather accused me of righteous indignation and then followed with that is how you see me.

Do you ever ask questions without taking a defensive and yet combative attitude?

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Intrepid, you are right and I apologise.

I think I did, however, answer the question in a variety of ways.

I think you disregard the life of a 14 year old girl if you outlaw abortion...because you are creating an environment that would (and has) led to the deaths of many.

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Eorl, I will only counter that abortion has also led to the deaths of many

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Intrepid given the choice right now:

14year old girl vs 8 week old foetus....

..which would you choose?

I choose girl, no question.
How about you...
Momma?
real life?

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I don't see how the answer to that question will have any direct bearing on abortion in general.

Why is a choice necessary? What are the circumstances?

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To determine wether you also have an understanding of the relative value of the two "lives". Were would YOU draw the line?

I guess it's a version of real life's logic trap, just aimed back the other way.

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ABORTION.......

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