Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 10:37 pm
real life, why?

I imagine everyone's view of abortion is different...theist or not.

Personally I'd rather abortion never happened...I just think there are worse things....such as a 15 year old girl dying because she tried to have an amateur abortion due to lack of access to professional medical care.

Folks who are anti-abortion often think that those who oppose them are pro-abortion....not so.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 10:49 pm
Eorl wrote:
real life, why?

I imagine everyone's view of abortion is different...theist or not.

Personally I'd rather abortion never happened...I just think there are worse things....such as a 15 year old girl dying because she tried to have an amateur abortion due to lack of access to professional medical care.

Folks who are anti-abortion often think that those who oppose them are pro-abortion....not so.


Are you afraid to read a view of abortion that doesn't come from a religious perspective? What are you afraid of?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 10:52 pm
I was trying to edit to mention I just did read it all. (but you replied too quickly)

Quite good reading..I appreciate his tricky position and respect his courageous stance (esp with his wife!)

He didn't give me any reasons to change my outlook though.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 10:57 pm
Eorl,

It's hard to go along with that ...those who oppose them are pro-abortion. If you would allow for an abortion for any reason, it's pro-abortion IMO.

I would love to see abortion banned, period. But, I do realize there are reasons for an abortion to be performed for medical (life threatening) reasons. However, I still hate the thought of abortion period.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 11:51 pm
Momma you are dead wrong. Sorry.

Those who oppose the abolition of abortion are not pro-abortion! That's just being deliberately obtuse.

Do you realise you've just defined yourself as "pro-abortion" by your own rules because you think there are some justifiable cases?

I hate the thought of abortion too.

I just think it's up to the women (and partly the men) who get pregnant to decide such matters for themselves up to a point, (arbitrary though that point may be) without being told by me how they should behave or what they should believe.

Strangely enough Momma, I think that this is a very good example of where you are not as respectful of others beliefs as you think...and in this case, certainly less respectful than I am !

It goes back to what I was saying about people only really respecting those beliefs that agree with, or at least don't contradict, one's own beliefs.

To see abortion "banned, period" is to impose your beliefs by law !
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 12:03 am
I do not usually post opinion pieces, but this is one concerning a local Tucson incident and I am in complete agreement with the writer. If you cannot read the whole thing, try to at least read the last few paragraphs.

Quote:
Rape victim subject to a pharmacist's morals

The Star's view: A patient with a legal prescription should not have to worry that her doctor's orders will become subject to her druggist's conscience.

If one more group assumes moral responsibility for what is allowed in the United States, the nation may soon sink under the weight of its superfluous righteousness. A debate over the ethical implications posed by the morning after pill are a case in point.

A story in Sunday's Star illustrated the perils of allowing pharmacists to refuse to dispense the "morning after" pill if they have moral or religious objections to doing so. The article described what happens when a pharmacist's personal beliefs create a barrier between a doctor and a patient in need of medicine.

The particular incident reported in the story was alarming - a rape victim goes to a pharmacy with a prescription for an emergency contraception drug, the so-called morning after pill, and the pharmacist refuses to fill it - but the broader implications of this case should send shock waves throughout society.

The medicine in question "prevents pregnancy by stopping ovulation, fertilization or implantation of a fertilized egg," according to Sunday's story. Religious conservatives and others opposed to abortion object to the use of the pill on grounds that it is essentially a nonsurgical abortion.

That a person has such objections and acts upon them is a personal choice. A pharmacist who objects to the morning after pill is certainly entitled to his or her opinion. But that person should not be making decisions for the rest of us.

Sunday's story noted that pharmacy chains have policies that, at least in theory, respect the pharmacists' personal principles while at the same time taking care of a customer's needs. The policies say that a pharmacist who refuses to dispense the morning after pill is obligated to find the consumer another pharmacist who will fill the prescription.

As the story in Sunday's Star illustrates, such a policy is bogus. When the rape victim called the pharmacy at Fry's, the pharmacist told her he'd fill her prescription if she got to the store before his shift ended, in 10 minutes. That was impossible because of where she lived, which left her in the position of having to wait until the pharmacist coming on duty, who would not dispense the pill, had finished his shift. Or she could find a different pharmacy.

Delays are important. Experts say the pill must be taken within three to five days after having unprotected sex, but the sooner it is taken after intercourse the more effective it is.

Finding another store that stocks the emergency contraceptive is not simple. A survey of 900 Arizona pharmacies last year found that that less than half of them stock the drug. A friend of the rape victim profiled on Sunday said she called nearly 50 pharmacies in Tucson before she located two that stocked the drug and were willing to dispense it.

Availability is clearly a major problem, but it's a problem compounded by pharmacists imposing their value judgments on women who may ultimately be in a life-or-death situation. It is not illegal for pharmacists to refuse to fill a valid prescription, but it should be.

Employers should require that pharmacists park their personal religious beliefs at the door when dealing with consumers. A woman with a legal prescription is not a criminal.

We do not suggest that a person abdicates moral responsibility when he or she goes to work for someone else. But if pharmacists are allowed to create a firewall between doctor and patient with respect to one drug, where will that end?

We may someday end up with pharmacists refusing to dispense antidepressants or blood pressure medicines because they believe prayer and meditation are solutions more compatible with their religious beliefs.

Pharmacies should fill prescriptions and leave the proselytizing to the person in the pulpit.

- S.N.


Link to original story
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 12:20 am
I'm with you Mesquite (as usual).
0 Replies
 
non-denom christian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 01:05 am
Abortion
Abort meaning to cut short. Any woman who would consider an abortion should not be having sexual intercourse. Life begins the millisesond the sperm enters the egg. If looked at with a special camera and microscope, fertilization of an ovum would look like an explosion. The only way to explain it plainly is a burst of light or energy at the time of conception. Education is so important when it comes to the question of to have or not to have. Simply put, abortion does kill a living being. The soul of that being however does not perish. God mourns for those being put to death by abortion as well as any human being. I know personally women who have had abortions and all wished they would have made another choice. Ending a pregnancy on purpose is something to really think about before you do it. Feelings of guilt can continue for many years as the would-have-been mother dreams about what the child would look like, act like, today had they made another choice, those feelings get worse especially when the woman is financially stable and has more children in the future, then she thinks to herself that she killed a sister or brother of her children. I know this because I know the women. I feel very bad for women who are in this predicament. Please do not expect or ask any woman to have an abortion, even if it is your own daughter. God is watching! ADOPTION is best!
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 01:53 am
Oh at last, someone who knows what God wants. We've been waiting thousands of years for you to show up! I take it this god talks to you directly and that you can prove it's not just a delusion?

Welcome non-denom, another judgmental self-righteous christian was just what this debate needed.

(Just a hint, you might wanna be ready to prove some of those claims you are making before putting them forward as irrefutable truth.)
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 06:53 am
Re: Abortion
non-denom christian wrote:
Abort meaning to cut short. Any woman who would consider an abortion should not be having sexual intercourse.

Capital idea! So now, not only do we take away the woman's right to decide what to do with her own body, we also regulate the frequency in which she may have sex. Excellent concept, i'm sure it will catch on quickly.

Quote:
Life begins the millisesond the sperm enters the egg.


Awesome. And here I thought people everywhere, scientists and doctors included, were still debating when life began. We should probably call them and let them know you figured it out already.

Quote:
If looked at with a special camera and microscope, fertilization of an ovum would look like an explosion. The only way to explain it plainly is a burst of light or energy at the time of conception. Education is so important when it comes to the question of to have or not to have. Simply put, abortion does kill a living being.


I still disagree with this up to a point. At what point does the collection of cells constitute a living being? And before Real Life jumps on with his typical rebuttle of this statement: I don't know that point, nor do I know that by adding 1 cell to that cluster that I would still feel the same.


Quote:
The soul of that being however does not perish. God mourns for those being put to death by abortion as well as any human being.

Ah, there it is. Irrationality clouding the judgement of those who would dictate laws. Was wondering when this would show up in this post.

Quote:
I know personally women who have had abortions and all wished they would have made another choice. Ending a pregnancy on purpose is something to really think about before you do it.


Absolutely, just like with any major surgery. Only with this one, popular religious dogma adds the flavor of guilt to what would already be a difficult decision.

Quote:
Feelings of guilt can continue for many years as the would-have-been mother dreams about what the child would look like, act like, today had they made another choice, those feelings get worse especially when the woman is financially stable and has more children in the future, then she thinks to herself that she killed a sister or brother of her children. I know this because I know the women. I feel very bad for women who are in this predicament. Please do not expect or ask any woman to have an abortion, even if it is your own daughter. God is watching! ADOPTION is best!


A few notes:

1) Noone here is asking any woman to do anything she does not wish to do. Likewise, those on the pro-abortion side of the fence aren't looking to take any of her rights away either.

2) God can watch all he wants. Until he lifts a finger to do anything to help he can sit there and play supernatural voyeur all day.

3) Adoption is certainly an option, and we're all about giving the woman her options. The more the better.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 07:14 am
eorl wrote:
Quote:
PS... you forgot to explain why you were offended.


I thought I did, but it is obvious from your reply that you would not understand.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 07:44 am
mesquite wrote:
I do not usually post opinion pieces, but this is one concerning a local Tucson incident and I am in complete agreement with the writer. If you cannot read the whole thing, try to at least read the last few paragraphs.

Quote:
Rape victim subject to a pharmacist's morals

The Star's view: A patient with a legal prescription should not have to worry that her doctor's orders will become subject to her druggist's conscience.

If one more group assumes moral responsibility for what is allowed in the United States, the nation may soon sink under the weight of its superfluous righteousness. A debate over the ethical implications posed by the morning after pill are a case in point.

A story in Sunday's Star illustrated the perils of allowing pharmacists to refuse to dispense the "morning after" pill if they have moral or religious objections to doing so. The article described what happens when a pharmacist's personal beliefs create a barrier between a doctor and a patient in need of medicine.

The particular incident reported in the story was alarming - a rape victim goes to a pharmacy with a prescription for an emergency contraception drug, the so-called morning after pill, and the pharmacist refuses to fill it - but the broader implications of this case should send shock waves throughout society.

The medicine in question "prevents pregnancy by stopping ovulation, fertilization or implantation of a fertilized egg," according to Sunday's story. Religious conservatives and others opposed to abortion object to the use of the pill on grounds that it is essentially a nonsurgical abortion.

That a person has such objections and acts upon them is a personal choice. A pharmacist who objects to the morning after pill is certainly entitled to his or her opinion. But that person should not be making decisions for the rest of us.

Sunday's story noted that pharmacy chains have policies that, at least in theory, respect the pharmacists' personal principles while at the same time taking care of a customer's needs. The policies say that a pharmacist who refuses to dispense the morning after pill is obligated to find the consumer another pharmacist who will fill the prescription.

As the story in Sunday's Star illustrates, such a policy is bogus. When the rape victim called the pharmacy at Fry's, the pharmacist told her he'd fill her prescription if she got to the store before his shift ended, in 10 minutes. That was impossible because of where she lived, which left her in the position of having to wait until the pharmacist coming on duty, who would not dispense the pill, had finished his shift. Or she could find a different pharmacy.

Delays are important. Experts say the pill must be taken within three to five days after having unprotected sex, but the sooner it is taken after intercourse the more effective it is.

Finding another store that stocks the emergency contraceptive is not simple. A survey of 900 Arizona pharmacies last year found that that less than half of them stock the drug. A friend of the rape victim profiled on Sunday said she called nearly 50 pharmacies in Tucson before she located two that stocked the drug and were willing to dispense it.

Availability is clearly a major problem, but it's a problem compounded by pharmacists imposing their value judgments on women who may ultimately be in a life-or-death situation. It is not illegal for pharmacists to refuse to fill a valid prescription, but it should be.

Employers should require that pharmacists park their personal religious beliefs at the door when dealing with consumers. A woman with a legal prescription is not a criminal.

We do not suggest that a person abdicates moral responsibility when he or she goes to work for someone else. But if pharmacists are allowed to create a firewall between doctor and patient with respect to one drug, where will that end?

We may someday end up with pharmacists refusing to dispense antidepressants or blood pressure medicines because they believe prayer and meditation are solutions more compatible with their religious beliefs.

Pharmacies should fill prescriptions and leave the proselytizing to the person in the pulpit.

- S.N.


Link to original story


To be consistent, are you advocating forcing all pharmacies to stock this abortifacient?

Since less than half of the pharmacies surveyed even keep the drug in stock, why should the idea of force and coercion only be applied to the employees and not to the business owners?

Are you going to insist that pharmacies all must carry this drug or lose their business license?
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 07:47 am
Quote:
Capital idea! So now, not only do we take away the woman's right to decide what to do with her own body, we also regulate the frequency in which she may have sex. Excellent concept, i'm sure it will catch on quickly.


If women have the right to kill these "non-humans", I think I should have the right to kill those that interfere with me too. How about my rights? If you tick me off, shouldn't I be able to just 'abort' you? Aren't we just animals anyways?

Typical liberal idiocy....blame the gun, not the person who fired it. Don't offend anyone, oh no! Don't go to the root of the problem (choosing to have sex)

easy way out.......
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 08:45 am
Eorl Wrote:

Quote:
Momma you are dead wrong. Sorry.

Those who oppose the abolition of abortion are not pro-abortion! That's just being deliberately obtuse.

Do you realise you've just defined yourself as "pro-abortion" by your own rules because you think there are some justifiable cases?

I hate the thought of abortion too.

I just think it's up to the women (and partly the men) who get pregnant to decide such matters for themselves up to a point, (arbitrary though that point may be) without being told by me how they should behave or what they should believe.

Strangely enough Momma, I think that this is a very good example of where you are not as respectful of others beliefs as you think...and in this case, certainly less respectful than I am !

It goes back to what I was saying about people only really respecting those beliefs that agree with, or at least don't contradict, one's own beliefs.

To see abortion "banned, period" is to impose your beliefs by law !


Eorl, I'm hurt. You seemed to have changed your tone with me. Let me see if I can explain myself a bit more clearly.

I do not believe it is any human being's right to decide a child should/could be aborted. I liken it to murder. Harsh? Yes, but that is what I believe.

Now, I could understand (not like, not accept as right) the fact that there are cases in which a mother's life might be in danger if she continues in the pregnancy and an abortion is performed. I could understand the decision for it. But, to me, it's still killing a child.

I understand that many of those that are pro-choice say they are actually anti-abortion. To me, that is so confusing. IMO they are still putting the rights of a mother over the rights of an innocent child. Human beings do not have that right to decide that. So, if they are pro-choice (IMO) they are more pro-abortion than not. But, that is just my opinion. I was not being deliberately obtuse. I just didn't state clearly what I meant.

Eorl, I respect your right to your beliefs and your feelings. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I don't respect you. Now, you may feel that because I am not pro-choice that I am being disrespectful. If you feel that way, I am sorry. I am very firm in my beliefs and will not apologize for them. But, I will not condemn anyone for what they do. That is not my place, nor do I have the authority to do so.

To see abortion banned period? Yes. But to impose my beliefs by law? Know this, Eorl. I was against abortion before I ever became a Christian. I am against abortion because of an experience in my life that had absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 09:02 am
Mesquite,

So, if we force pharmacists/business owners to carry this drug should we also force them to carry objectionable reading material?

I thought we live in a country where people were allowed to live by the conscience as long as they abide by the law? If someone doesn't want to sell dirty magazines they shouldn't have to. If someone doesn't want to sell a certain drug in their drug store, they shouldn't have to. I don't know how many times I have gone to a pharmacy to get a prescription only to find out that particular pharmacy didn't stock the drug. Do you think I thought for one second they didn't do it because they were taking away my choice for anything? Of course not. Business owners decide what they sell and don't sell in their place of business for a myriad of reasons. I would guess this is just indicative of a very tiny bit of the population (your article). Pharmacies can't stock every single pill available. I think that would be pretty impossible.

I am so amazed at how there are so many that cannot see that society becomes more and more tolerant of things that are just plain wrong. And the more wrongs society makes right the quicker the downfall of humanity.

Non-denom Christian,

Welcome to A2K. I see you are getting the usual warm greeting Laughing . Fasten your seatbelt and strap on some armor and a sense of humor. These debates can sometimes get pretty heated.

I agree with you. I am all for people taking responsibility for their own actions. If even one abortion is performed for a woman's convenience, then it is one too many. But, it seems God is the one that is blamed for the worlds' ills and not man.

I also believe life begins at conception. Always have believed it and always will believe it.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 10:07 am
real life wrote:
To be consistent, are you advocating forcing all pharmacies to stock this abortifacient?

Since less than half of the pharmacies surveyed even keep the drug in stock, why should the idea of force and coercion only be applied to the employees and not to the business owners?

Are you going to insist that pharmacies all must carry this drug or lose their business license?


No I am not advocating forcing all pharmacies to stock this emergency contraceptive which is not an abortifacient. If you read the article, then you would have seen that many stores do not stock the drug because demand is low. All businesses must make business decisions about what products to stock due to any numbers of considerations.

What I am advocating is that once business makes a decision to carry a product, individual employees whether pharmacists or checkout clerks should not be making individual choices to block a sale.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 10:35 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Mesquite,

So, if we force pharmacists/business owners to carry this drug should we also force them to carry objectionable reading material?

That strawman I took care of in my reply to real life.

Momma Angel wrote:
I thought we live in a country where people were allowed to live by the conscience as long as they abide by the law? If someone doesn't want to sell dirty magazines they shouldn't have to. If someone doesn't want to sell a certain drug in their drug store, they shouldn't have to.

So, by your way of doing things, if an employee of a book store should be able to refuse selling a Bible because they think it is a crappy book and might be read by children? I think that people that cannot separate their own value judgements from their employment should be very selective of where they work, period.

Momma Angel wrote:
I am so amazed at how there are so many that cannot see that society becomes more and more tolerant of things that are just plain wrong. And the more wrongs society makes right the quicker the downfall of humanity.

I am also amazed that there are so many that cannot see that they do not have the only valid view of morality.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 10:43 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Quote:
Capital idea! So now, not only do we take away the woman's right to decide what to do with her own body, we also regulate the frequency in which she may have sex. Excellent concept, i'm sure it will catch on quickly.


If women have the right to kill these "non-humans", I think I should have the right to kill those that interfere with me too. How about my rights? If you tick me off, shouldn't I be able to just 'abort' you? Aren't we just animals anyways?

Typical liberal idiocy....blame the gun, not the person who fired it. Don't offend anyone, oh no! Don't go to the root of the problem (choosing to have sex)

easy way out.......


Typical right wing heart-string tugging blather as well. It's a human! Nevermind that it hasn't developed heart, lungs, brain, eyes, or even determined it's sex as of yet. Dang it, it's alive, it has a SOUL! You make God cry by "killing" it blah blah blah.

Why should a woman's right to have sex be removed simply because other birth control measures have the possibility of failure? Your rebuttle about killing people that interfere with you gave me a good chuckle though.
0 Replies
 
non-denom christian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 11:16 am
Hi everyone, I'ts good to so many concerned individuals reflecting on such a touchy world topic. First of all in response to Pragmatic I'd like to say that the idea of religion changing with the times is sadly a true phenomonon. Over time people become densitized and forget that sin is black and white. There is no grey area when it comes to God's word. Thou shall not kill is a commandment that has no ifs ands or buts. Fornication and lust create unwanted pregnancies, so don't forget it. Sin begets sin. Organized religion was created by man. Catholisism has many flaws that unweary Catholics fall prey to. As with any religion it is best to read the Holy Bible for yourself and trust only our creator. Love one another dosen't mean lust at all and it never did. When you all discover the true meaning of love I will be happy to have this conversation again. As long as you keep pushing away the truth and filling that space with excuses, your morals will continue to deteriorate. These young women who are having abortions are filling their need to be loved with dangerous lust. The next time you see a teenage girl who is in poverty, tell her she is loved and she is a beautifil human being, fill her heart with the Holy Spirit and she will think twice before falling to lust. Does that make any sense?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2005 11:26 am
mesquite wrote:
real life wrote:
To be consistent, are you advocating forcing all pharmacies to stock this abortifacient?

Since less than half of the pharmacies surveyed even keep the drug in stock, why should the idea of force and coercion only be applied to the employees and not to the business owners?

Are you going to insist that pharmacies all must carry this drug or lose their business license?


No I am not advocating forcing all pharmacies to stock this emergency contraceptive which is not an abortifacient. If you read the article, then you would have seen that many stores do not stock the drug because demand is low. All businesses must make business decisions about what products to stock due to any numbers of considerations.

What I am advocating is that once business makes a decision to carry a product, individual employees whether pharmacists or checkout clerks should not be making individual choices to block a sale.


If the pharmacist's employer allows him to make this decision, why are you going to insist that you should be allowed to overrule the business decision that his employer has made? You are not consistent on this.

If a hospital allows abortions, should all doctors and nurses of that hospital be required to participate? Just to be consistent?

This drug is not contraception, because conception (i.e fertilization of the egg by the sperm ) has already taken place, so you are not preventing conception. It is an abortifacient. It causes the loss of the unborn after having been conceived.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
  1. Forums
  2. » ABORTION.......
  3. » Page 93
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 10/12/2024 at 04:19:23