real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2005 11:09 pm
Terry wrote:
real life wrote:
Is the unborn worthy of protection 1 minute before birth?

How about two minutes?

At whatever point you decide that the right to life should be inviolate, then you must ask yourself: What about just prior to this arbitrary point that has been chosen? Why is the unborn not worthy of protection 1 minute, or 1 hour prior to the time that has been chosen?

I can well understand a thoughtful person concluding, "I just am not sure when the unborn is alive or when it is human. It is not clear at all when this takes place."

To this I must ask: Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt go to the unborn? If we are to err, should we not err on the side of life?

Or as another has put it more bluntly: You wouldn't bury a body unless you were sure it was dead, would you?

If then you are not sure if the unborn is alive or not, should we not proceed as if she MAY indeed be alive and not callously assume that there is no human life there, thus assuring death?

Life is a process, not a point. Just like all other vertibrates, the human embryo gradually grows a heart, brain and all of the other organs and systems and eventually the blob of undifferentiated cells becomes a human being. We do know quite a bit about the process, and one of the things we know is that the fetal brain does not develop to the point where awareness might be possible until at least 24 weeks gestation.

After that point (which coincidentally occurs about the same time as viability), the developing human life does have some legal protection. But if a choice must be made between the rights of a fully-aware woman who has grown and made a unique impact on the world for many years and a rudimentary life that exists only in potential, I cannot understand why anyone would claim a fetus has rights that superceed those of the woman who created it.

Abortions are NEVER done "one minute before birth." Or two minutes. Or 10, 1,000, or 10 thousand minutes before birth. During the last trimester, abortions may only be done for compelling medical reasons, such as to save the life or health of the woman or if the fetus has severe defects.


Hi Terry,

Do you consider "if the fetus has severe defects" to be a sound rationale for abortion?

Hmmm. The unborn child is ill (hereditary disease or abnormality, or whatever ), so we'll fix that by killing her. Why would anyone consider this a sound course of action?

Your statement on when the unborn might be "aware" has no bearing on the discussion. If I am asleep and not aware that you inject me with poison to kill me, I still die.

The point is not "awareness", the point is life, Terry. And since brain waves have been recorded as early as the 6th week, your theory of when the unborn begins awareness is highly suspect anyway. Your use of lame euphemism ("rudimentary life that only exists in potential") is indicative of the fact that you cannot talk in a straightforward fashion about what is actually taking place in an abortion.

Abortions are performed by slicing an unborn into small pieces in a painful grueling procedure, or injecting saline into the womb for the unborn to inhale into the lungs and burn itself chemically to death, slowly and painfully. Your denial of the unborn's personhood is only made more ridiculous by your denial of the barbaric procedures which are used to exterminate her.

If you used procedures such as an abortionist uses to rid yourself of a stray dog or cat, you would likely face serious jail time in many localities.

Also you seem to gloss over the legality of third trimester abortions. Perhaps your state has legal restrictions or prohibitions, but other states are another story. In those locations, abortion is perfectly legal up to the point of birth.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2005 11:54 pm
Real life,

When was the last time someone asked you to carry a stray dog or cat around inside your uterus for the better part of a year?

..wait, scratch the word "asked"...when was the last time someone insisted you must carry a stray dog or cat around inside your uterus for the better part of a year?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2005 11:54 pm
edit : double post
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 12:52 am
I don't believe that I just read that.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 02:25 am
It's OK Intrepid....double posts happen all the time.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 06:22 am
Quote:
Do you consider "if the fetus has severe defects" to be a sound rationale for abortion?


YES. You probably have never known people who carried a child with very severe defects to term. I do.

The parents were older people. When the woman, who is very religious, became pregnant, I asked her when she was going to have an amnio. Her reply was that she wasn't. She said, "I will take what God gives me".

Well, "God" really did a number on her. The child, who is now 13, is blind, not because there is anything wrong with her eyes, but because there are no neural connections between her eyes and her brain. She is microcephalic. Her IQ is non-existent, and she is incapable of either learning, or training. She cannot communicate, except for an occasional grunt. She cannot eat, and is fed through a tube in her stomach. She used to have frequent seizures, and for a time, was in and out of the hospital. She needs to be cared for like a newborn.

This family's entire existence revolves around this daughter, who will never have any quality of life. Do I think that she should have been aborted? Absolutely!
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 06:48 am
Eorl wrote:
It's OK Intrepid....double posts happen all the time.


It wasn't the double post and you know it!
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 07:12 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
Do you consider "if the fetus has severe defects" to be a sound rationale for abortion?


YES. You probably have never known people who carried a child with very severe defects to term. I do.

The parents were older people. When the woman, who is very religious, became pregnant, I asked her when she was going to have an amnio. Her reply was that she wasn't. She said, "I will take what God gives me".

Well, "God" really did a number on her. The child, who is now 13, is blind, not because there is anything wrong with her eyes, but because there are no neural connections between her eyes and her brain. She is microcephalic. Her IQ is non-existent, and she is incapable of either learning, or training. She cannot communicate, except for an occasional grunt. She cannot eat, and is fed through a tube in her stomach. She used to have frequent seizures, and for a time, was in and out of the hospital. She needs to be cared for like a newborn.

This family's entire existence revolves around this daughter, who will never have any quality of life. Do I think that she should have been aborted? Absolutely!


Does she think she should have aborted?
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 07:14 am
Quote:
Does she think she should have aborted?


I don't believe that she thinks at all. Did you read my post carefully, and do you understand her level of disability?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 08:34 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
Does she think she should have aborted?


I don't believe that she thinks at all. Did you read my post carefully, and do you understand her level of disability?


Yes I did read it and I understand it. I also know women who have given birth to perfectly healthy babies, who were verbally berated by doctors who told them they were going to give birth to a baby like this, but it didn't happen.

My point is that you're all about it's the woman's choice alone and no one should interfere --- except when she makes a choice that YOU disagree with. What a double standard.

And how pathetic of you to pile on in her difficulty by berating her for 'not thinking'. She may or may not think, but I wonder, do you think about what you are saying? Do you have no feeling for her, to belittle her this way? What a disgusting display of pompousness and self righteousness.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 09:15 am
Ok, I have a question. Kind of ties two things together.

It seems that those (not all) that are for abortion are also those (not all) that believe God is only like the God depicted in the Old Testament.

Now, this is my question. How can those (not all) that believe God is so barbaric and murderous believe it is okay to let these abortions be performed? Are these abortions not barbaric? Are they not hideous? Don't these abortions cause deaths in the thousands? Innocent deaths? And yet, there are those (not all) that rail against God for killing who they call innocent. To me, this is the highest double standard of all time in work here for some (not all).
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 09:35 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
Does she think she should have aborted?


I don't believe that she thinks at all. Did you read my post carefully, and do you understand her level of disability?


Reading the question, I take it that Real was asking if the mother thought she should have aborted...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 04:01 pm
That's the way I saw the question, too, Intrepid.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 04:11 pm
Intrepid wrote:
My point is that you're all about it's the woman's choice alone and no one should interfere --- except when she makes a choice that YOU disagree with. What a double standard.


There is no double standard. The mother had a perfect right to do as she pleased. I was giving my own personal opinion.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 06:05 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Eorl wrote:
It's OK Intrepid....double posts happen all the time.


It wasn't the double post and you know it!
Rolling Eyes


Yes, I was being facetious.

Intrepid, what offends you about my post?

I'm curious...if you had to choose between the life of an 8 week old feotus that neither parents wants to keep and a stray dog, which would you choose? I'd save the dog.

It seems to me that religious folks think human "souls" are uniquely special and that this is the cause of the entire religious objection to it. Do you guys agree?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 06:30 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
My point is that you're all about it's the woman's choice alone and no one should interfere --- except when she makes a choice that YOU disagree with. What a double standard.


There is no double standard. The mother had a perfect right to do as she pleased. I was giving my own personal opinion.


Phoenix,
With all due respect I DID NOT write that. You are attributing a quote to me that I did not make

I have cut and pasted this so you can see what you said I said.

Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:


I don't believe that she thinks at all. Did you read my post carefully, and do you understand her level of disability?


real life wrote:
Quote:
Yes I did read it and I understand it. I also know women who have given birth to perfectly healthy babies, who were verbally berated by doctors who told them they were going to give birth to a baby like this, but it didn't happen.

My point is that you're all about it's the woman's choice alone and no one should interfere --- except when she makes a choice that YOU disagree with. What a double standard.

And how pathetic of you to pile on in her difficulty by berating her for 'not thinking'. She may or may not think, but I wonder, do you think about what you are saying? Do you have no feeling for her, to belittle her this way? What a disgusting display of pompousness and self righteousness.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 06:38 pm
Eorl,

I run a homeless cat shelter. My passion is cats. I love animals. But, in this instance you have given, I would save the child.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 06:40 pm
Eorl wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Eorl wrote:
It's OK Intrepid....double posts happen all the time.


It wasn't the double post and you know it!
Rolling Eyes


Yes, I was being facetious.

Intrepid, what offends you about my post?

I'm curious...if you had to choose between the life of an 8 week old feotus that neither parents wants to keep and a stray dog, which would you choose? I'd save the dog.

It seems to me that religious folks think human "souls" are uniquely
special and that this is the cause of the entire religious objection to it. Do you guys agree?


This is what you wrote, or how you wrote it, that offended me

eorl wrote:
Quote:
Real life,

When was the last time someone asked you to carry a stray dog or cat around inside your uterus for the better part of a year?

..wait, scratch the word "asked"...when was the last time someone insisted you must carry a stray dog or cat around inside your uterus for the better part of a year?


Now you compare a 8 week old fetus that parents do not want to keep to a stray dog and ask which would I keep. In both cases, nobody wants them. Why do you hold the life of the dog above that of the human child?

You want to know if Christians think human souls are uniquely special. You bet they are. To us and to God. The fact that you place so little value on human life is your business. As for me, I disagree with you.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 08:31 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
Now you compare a 8 week old fetus that parents do not want to keep to a stray dog and ask which would I keep. In both cases, nobody wants them. Why do you hold the life of the dog above that of the human child?

You want to know if Christians think human souls are uniquely special. You bet they are. To us and to God. The fact that you place so little value on human life is your business. As for me, I disagree with you


I'd save the dog because it is a more advanced life form, it has survived and developed to be to capable of thought and feeling and memory and of understanding that I'm killing it.

The foetus has something like a one in three chance of being "miscarried" before 12 weeks anyway (I guess you would see that as God murdering thousands of babies every day for his own bizarre reasons?)

How dare you suggest I don't value human life highly just because I value ALL life highly? I just don't think we are any more special than any other form of life...we just happen to be up at the pointy end when it comes to intellect . I don't know of any "soul", I think someone made that bit up...I've certainly never seen one...and we clearly disagree about what constitutes a human life....since that is the whole basis of the "right-to-life" argument.

Given the choice between an intelligent mammal life and a potential, probable future human life that I must force the parents to continue nurturing against their will, I'll choose not to take a life thanks.

PS... you forgot to explain why you were offended.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2005 09:44 pm
Eorl wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Eorl wrote:
It's OK Intrepid....double posts happen all the time.


It wasn't the double post and you know it!
Rolling Eyes


Yes, I was being facetious.

Intrepid, what offends you about my post?

I'm curious...if you had to choose between the life of an 8 week old feotus that neither parents wants to keep and a stray dog, which would you choose? I'd save the dog.

It seems to me that religious folks think human "souls" are uniquely special and that this is the cause of the entire religious objection to it. Do you guys agree?


Maybe you should read an atheist's view of abortion.

http://prolife.liberals.com/articles/hentoff.html
0 Replies
 
 

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