Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 04:09 pm
Especially since I even added: "Even you see the inconsistency. "...

...which obviously was directed to you when you consider what you said in your post....which I quoted.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 04:37 pm
One more time, Frank.

I thought you were zeroing in on me because you quoted me and then you used YOU thereinafter.

Oh, so I was supposed to take just a couple of the yous as international and one meant for me? Guess you should have told me that.

And this is probably the silliest (IMO) conversation I have ever involved myself in. I am ashamed. I am ending my side now.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 05:21 pm
It does take some thinking...

...but if you spend the time...

...it is thinking time well spent!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 05:23 pm
By the way, MA...

...you really gotta get out of the habit of saying you are leaving or stopping or quitting...

...because you done that dozens of times in various threads...

...and to the best of my knowledge, you have never kept your commitment.

Best to simply avoid making that kind of "promise" or "threat"....

...because these threads have a way of dragging you back in no matter how much you want to leave 'em.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 05:29 pm
I have a question regarding abortion. Can anyone tell me that if a woman considering an abortion that believes it is not a child, but a zygote, fetus, etc., why would she then have any guilt-type feelings about doing it?

I have read in this thread that these women do suffer these feelings, and I definitely believe they do. I just don't understand why they would feel that way if they really believed it is not a child they are aborting.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 05:43 pm
Momma wrote:
I have a question regarding abortion. Can anyone tell me that if a woman considering an abortion that believes it is not a child, but a zygote, fetus, etc., why would she then have any guilt-type feelings about doing it?


Momma- That herring is as red as the side of a barn. Of course a woman would be conflicted about aborting a fetus. I don't believe that the fetus is a baby, but IMO, it is a potential.

Women are designed biologically to have children. When a woman becomes pregnant, hormones suffuse her body in preparation. Then there is the issue of the relationship of the woman to the man who impregnated her. In many cases that end the pregnancy in abortion the woman is deeply conflicted.

The woman's body is telling her to carry the pregnancy to term, while her intellect is telling her that having a baby at this time is not right for her. Of course there is a certain amount of guilt involved.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 05:44 pm
Quote:
Momma Angel wrote:
I have a question regarding abortion. Can anyone tell me that if a woman considering an abortion that believes it is not a child, but a zygote, fetus, etc., why would she then have any guilt-type feelings about doing it?


I have read in this thread that these women do suffer these feelings, and I definitely believe they do. I just don't understand why they would feel that way if they really believed it is not a child they are aborting.


Well....for one thing...many women simply do not suffer feelings of guilt after an abortion.

Many do...that I will grant.

I have a theory that many who do...probably owe lots of that "feeling of guilt" to the holy roller people who stick their noses into places where it don't belong...and attempt to cause women contemplating abortion to feel as lousy and as guilty about the decision as possible.

In any case...we all know that the end result of a pregnancy if allowed to proceed to term...is a new baby.

Yup...the moment the fertilized egg...which became a zygote...which became an embryo...which became a fetus...

...exits the birth canal...

...it becomes a living human being...a baby.

Until that point...it had been a fertilized egg, a zygote, an embryo and a fetus in turn.

And I guess ending that sequence can cause some anguish...and maybe even feelings of guilt. Especially, as I noted above, if unfeeling people make the experience as guilt provoking as possible.

So...it is entirely possible for a woman to experience feeling of the sort you mentioned...without feeling the fertilized egg, zygote, embryo, or fetus is, or was, a baby.

Hope I was of help, MA.

I know we've had some bad moments lately...but I really want to help you with each question you ask.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 05:49 pm
Phoenix,

Thank you. I really did want a woman's perspective on that. I really do try to understand all sides of this issue. So, I ask questions so I can learn.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 05:54 pm
Did I read that right, Frank. The guilt that women who abort a fetus feel is directly related to people having opinions?

Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Well....for one thing...many women simply do not suffer feelings of guilt after an abortion.

Many do...that I will grant.

I have a theory that many who do...probably owe lots of that "feeling of guilt" to the holy roller people who stick their noses into places where it don't belong...and attempt to cause women contemplating abortion to feel as lousy and as guilty about the decision as possible.


Quote:
I have a theory that many who do...probably owe lots of that "feeling of guilt" to the holy roller people who stick their noses into places where it don't belong...and attempt to cause women contemplating abortion to feel as lousy and as guilty about the decision as possible.


Did you read what Phoenix wrote?
Quote:
Women are designed biologically to have children. When a woman becomes pregnant, hormones suffuse her body in preparation. Then there is the issue of the relationship of the woman to the man who impregnated her. In many cases that end the pregnancy in abortion the woman is deeply conflicted.

The woman's body is telling her to carry the pregnancy to term, while her intellect is telling her that having a baby at this time is not right for her. Of course there is a certain amount of guilt involved.


She is answering in an honest manner. You, on the other hand, choose to blame Christians for any feeling of guilt that the "mother" feels.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 06:00 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Did I read that right, Frank. The guilt that women who abort a fetus feel is directly related to people having opinions?

Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Well....for one thing...many women simply do not suffer feelings of guilt after an abortion.

Many do...that I will grant.

I have a theory that many who do...probably owe lots of that "feeling of guilt" to the holy roller people who stick their noses into places where it don't belong...and attempt to cause women contemplating abortion to feel as lousy and as guilty about the decision as possible.


Quote:
I have a theory that many who do...probably owe lots of that "feeling of guilt" to the holy roller people who stick their noses into places where it don't belong...and attempt to cause women contemplating abortion to feel as lousy and as guilty about the decision as possible.


Did you read what Phoenix wrote?
Quote:
Women are designed biologically to have children. When a woman becomes pregnant, hormones suffuse her body in preparation. Then there is the issue of the relationship of the woman to the man who impregnated her. In many cases that end the pregnancy in abortion the woman is deeply conflicted.

The woman's body is telling her to carry the pregnancy to term, while her intellect is telling her that having a baby at this time is not right for her. Of course there is a certain amount of guilt involved.


She is answering in an honest manner. You, on the other hand, choose to blame Christians for any feeling of guilt that the "mother" feels.


No I didn't!

Read it again.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 06:02 pm
Intrepid- The thing is, that if a pregnant woman who has an abortion belongs to a group that is against abortion, there will be a greater guilt. The negative messages that she has been given about abortion will only add to her conflict.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 06:06 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Intrepid- The thing is, that if a pregnant woman who has an abortion belongs to a group that is against abortion, there will be a greater guilt. The negative messages that she has been given about abortion will only add to her conflict.


That is quite possible, Phoenix. However, that is not what Frank said. He did not make any mention of the woman aborting being part of a group being against abortion. He seemed to be making a general statement that Christians are causing the guilt of women who abort regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 06:16 pm
Phoenix,

I am in agreement with Intrepid here. I purposely avoided that statement Frank made about the holy roller people (even in anyone's wildest imagination) being at fault for any of the woman's guilt.

But, I totally understood your answer and it made perfect sense to me.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 06:25 pm
I don't think that what anti-abortion groups are saying would affect a mature woman to any great extent, although a group of protesters in front of an abortion clinic might make her very, very uncomfortable, and would certainly add to her conflict.

The problem is, that many of the women having abortions are young, unsophisticated, and prone to peer pressure. In that case, even a woman not in an anti-abortion religious group, might assume some guilt if her friends and neighbors had negative feelings about her decision, especially of they were vocal to her about their views.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 06:30 pm
Phoenix,

I can agree with that up to a point. In the end, we are all responsible for our own feelings and our own actions.

And I can't stand to hear of people who bomb abortion clinics and try to use 'shaming' women going into clinics. That is NOT ok for anyone to do that. We have laws and we vote and we should work through the system to change what we want changed. But we should never try to force it like you describe in your first paragraph. In that respect, I can agree with you.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 09:26 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Frank, if you can find a single quote of mind where I referred to anyone with the term 'baby killer' I'll send a $100 contribution to Planned Parenthood. Nor have I told a single lie except in your own wierd mind. I've already withdrawn from the debate, but I'll have to keep pointing out the lack of merit (or truth) in your insults directed at me.


You people are a laugh...but most especially you, Fox.

I cannot count the times you have referred to a woman choosing to terminate her pregnancy as "killing a baby."

How else can that possibly be interpreted...except as calling those who perform abortions as baby-killers...and as calling those who support a woman's right to choose to terminate her pregnancy...as abettors of baby-killing.


So right Frank. Here are just a couple from the last few days.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1609354#1609354


foxfyre wrote:
That's why we on the prolife side say the 'pro choice' handle is inconsistent when you look at the big picture. To advocate a woman killing her unborn child just because she wants to is pro abortion. You can't get around it or sanitize it by attaching a less graphic term to it. And the only way a moral people can advocate killing a baby for the woman's convenience is to give the unborn child subhuman status. It is no longer a developing person. It is a 'bundle of cells', a 'parasite', a 'thing' that can be discarded at will.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1606423#1606423

foxfyre wrote:
The pro-abortion people have used 'zygote' and 'fetus' as synonyms for non-human beings and the law that a woman is allowed to kill her baby at any point prior to complete birth as a moral license to do so. They have absolutely nothing else to add to the debate.


Foxfyre is clearly doing a pathetic tap dance around her clearly written words and their intent.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 09:34 pm
The only tapdance going on is Frank saying we called him a baby killer when we didn't.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 09:43 pm
Despite your enthusiasm for taking a shot at me, Mesquite, I'll stand by what I said. For those of us who know that the being still in the womb is a human baby and not a subhuman something else, there is no way to get around the implications of killing a baby when an abortion is performed.

I notice you didn't bother to post any of my posts in which I said I do not presume to be a judge of anyone in this matter, nor have I brought religion into the principle at any time. Of course if you had, you couldn't tar me with the 'evil Bible thumper' image to discredit me, could you?

Thunder was absolutely right when he said that it is the opinion of the prolifers that there is no right to kill another human being for convenience. But the pro-abortion people won't even concede that point.

The latest argument now is that it is okay because the Supreme Court says it is okay. I think those who agonized and finally agreed on the exquisite language of Roe v Wade would not agree that their intent was what the pro-abortion crowd has made of it.

And I wonder if those who now point to the Supreme Court as their moral authority will have the same point of view about that if the Court at some time should rule that the states can impose restrictions on abortion.

I will add a disclaimer here that I do not think all pro choice people are pro abortion. All the prolifers who have contributed to this thread have agreed there are times and circumstances in which the choice for abortion may be the moral choice.

But so long as there are those out there who say it is perfectly moral for the the woman to choose to kill a healthy baby as it emerges from the womb for no other reason than she does not want the baby, there will be those of us who are willing to say that is wrong and it should not stand.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 10:05 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

And I wonder if those who now point to the Supreme Court as their moral authority will have the same point of view about that if the Court at some time should rule that the states can impose restrictions on abortion.



Good point, Foxfyre.

I have also thought for a long time that the pro-abortion crowd's enthusiasm for the Supreme Court was a mile wide and a fingernail deep.

If abortion is morally wrong, then it is wrong whether the court approves it or not.

If abortion is morally acceptable, then it is acceptable whether the court approves it or not.

Pro-abortion fans claim that their support of abortion would not change if was declared illegal tomorrow. Thus they signal their belief that abortion is a moral right, not just a legal one.

Therefore, if the woman can possess a moral right that may or may not be recognized by the law of the land, then the unborn can also have a moral right to life whether or not it is recognized by the law of the land.

The question then, (as some pro-abortion fans seem to understand clearly but refuse to openly admit in an honest fashion) is:

When these two rights collide, which claimed moral right must be considered strongest:

a) the woman's right that her convenience must be uninterrupted?

b) or the unborn's right to live and be protected from slaughter?
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 11:14 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Despite your enthusiasm for taking a shot at me, Mesquite, I'll stand by what I said. For those of us who know that the being still in the womb is a human baby and not a subhuman something else, there is no way to get around the implications of killing a baby when an abortion is performed.

Of course you will stand by what you said. It has been your line for as long as I have seen your postings on this issue. The farce is in the air you put on about never using the term "baby killer"

Foxfyre wrote:
I notice you didn't bother to post any of my posts in which I said I do not presume to be a judge of anyone in this matter, nor have I brought religion into the principle at any time. Of course if you had, you couldn't tar me with the 'evil Bible thumper' image to discredit me, could you?

You think I should bring up posts that demonstrate your hypocrisy about not judging others?

Foxfyre wrote:
Thunder was absolutely right when he said that it is the opinion of the prolifers that there is no right to kill another human being for convenience. But the pro-abortion people won't even concede that point.

I do not know any pro-abortion people, so I cannot comment.

Foxfyre wrote:
The latest argument now is that it is okay because the Supreme Court says it is okay. I think those who agonized and finally agreed on the exquisite language of Roe v Wade would not agree that their intent was what the pro-abortion crowd has made of it.

When under attack, it is common for defenses to go up. Your expression, "exquisite language of Roe v Wade" is not one I have heard from many pro-lifers.

Foxfyre wrote:
And I wonder if those who now point to the Supreme Court as their moral authority will have the same point of view about that if the Court at some time should rule that the states can impose restrictions on abortion.

The Supreme Court as a moral authority? Is that your invention?

Foxfyre wrote:
I will add a disclaimer here that I do not think all pro choice people are pro abortion. All the prolifers who have contributed to this thread have agreed there are times and circumstances in which the choice for abortion may be the moral choice.

For myself I can concede that there that there may be times and circumstances in which the choice for abortion may not be the moral choice. I have seen many others here express similar views.

Foxfyre wrote:
But so long as there are those out there who say it is perfectly moral for the the woman to choose to kill a healthy baby as it emerges from the womb for no other reason than she does not want the baby, there will be those of us who are willing to say that is wrong and it should not stand.

There you go again, using the word moral in a way that I have not seen any pro-choice advocate on A2K use.
0 Replies
 
 

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