ABORTION.......

Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Frank,

You can be very charming when you want to be. You can also be very frustrating, true. I hold no hard feelings for you Frank. On the contrary, you have been in my prayers everyday since our first understanding of each's other's stand on religion.

Frank can be many things. Somehow, charming is not one of the attributes that I have seen. Actually, I am still searching for attributes.

Well you are not going to find them where you've got your head stuck, Intrepid!

oooohhhhh. You mean up in the air to avoid the smell? Wouldn't want to have mine where yours is. Laughing

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real life wrote:

flushd wrote:

There is a false belief amongst many people that legalizing abortion will increase the amount of irresponsible pregnancies. It simply is not true.

Hi Flushd,

Let's not cloud the issue. The issue is abortion.

Legalizing abortion results in unborn children being sliced to pieces with razor like instruments, chemically poisoned and having their skulls pierced and their brains sucked out.

That's what we are talking about. It's wrong.

Pussyfooting around the issue like a Jersey lawyer, altering the topic, or engaging in semantic dodges do not change the reality of what abortion is.

If you were to rid your household of an unwanted dog or cat using the same instruments and methods that an abortionist uses, then you would be facing serious jail time in most localities, my friend.

It's wrong. You may counter 'but it's legal.' That makes not one bit of difference. It's wrong.

Of course you don't want to discuss the morality of it. How could you? You are defending the indefensible. It's wrong.

Pro-abortion fans run and hide from discussions on morality and hide behind the current legal status of abortion. When pressed, they admit usually that if abortion was illegal tomorrow that they would still support it. Thus their hypocritical "respect" for the law is seen.

Pro-abortion fans hide from the medical facts on fetalogy because it's a losing game for them if people learn what goes on during a pregnancy.

How about informed consent? Would you support it? Should an abortionist be required to show the mother her unborn moving around, heart beating on a sonogram before she gives consent to let him cut the unborn to ribbons?

Hey real life,

Ok. Please remember I speak for myself, and not all people who are on the pro-choice side.

First, I have not personally used the law to hide behind. Legal or not: this is my stance. That does not make me hypocritical. It means I believe what I say; regardless of the law.

Second, I would be happy to discuss morality. BUT: as I have already stated, I do not consider this an issue of morality. I consider it an issue of facts. If the facts prove I am wrong, I would gleefully reconsider my stance. My personal morality IMO should not be the determining factor in something which will affect millions of people.

Third, I know the medical facts. I have seen a fetus. I understand reproduction. I am not completely ignorant to what an abortion actually is, nor the complications involved. I also understand there are risks. I understand that a living developing being is being terminated.

Would I support informed consent?
Yes. I would support any further education. Knowledge is power.
A woman deserves to know all the possibilities and options, and have as many facts available to her, before making such an important decision.
She deserves a right to choose what is right for her and her developing child.

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flushd wrote:

........as I have already stated, I do not consider this an issue of morality.............

Since abortion is going to be either legal or illegal, and since all laws are an expression of SOMEONE'S morality i.e. their idea of what is right and wrong, can you explain how this is not an issue of morality?

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Sure.

Yes, laws are an expression of Someone's morality.
But that doesn't mean they are the deciding factor in whether something is legal or not.
I do not support laws that are based solely on moral judgements. There are other factors to consider when creating/destroying laws.

Are you saying that you decide whether or not to support laws based on morals judgements only?

I don't. I support a law if I find it to be just and in the best interest of the people. All people. My moral judgements are only part of that equation.

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Frank,

You can be very charming when you want to be. You can also be very frustrating, true. I hold no hard feelings for you Frank. On the contrary, you have been in my prayers everyday since our first understanding of each's other's stand on religion.

Frank can be many things. Somehow, charming is not one of the attributes that I have seen. Actually, I am still searching for attributes.

Well you are not going to find them where you've got your head stuck, Intrepid!

oooohhhhh. You mean up in the air to avoid the smell? Wouldn't want to have mine where yours is.

If there is a smell...it is coming from where you've got your head stuck...not from your computer. Smell doesn't travel over a computer.

But I'll just bet the smell where you've got your head stuck is pretty bad.

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In another p*ssing contest huh, gramps?

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snood wrote:

In another p*ssing contest huh, gramps?

Snood- No matter what the argument, I really take umbrage by your referring to Frank as "Gramps". It is very insulting, and IMO, childishly hostile. Now you mind your manners, sonny! (How does THAT feel?)

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Hi Phoenix,

Yes, it may be insulting to Frank what Snood said, but why do you come to his defense when Frank has called others names?

I think if we ALL would stop calling anyone names, we wouldn't have these p**** contests.

Nice to see you!

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

snood wrote:
In another p*ssing contest huh, gramps?

Snood- No matter what the argument, I really take umbrage by your referring to Frank as "Gramps". It is very insulting, and IMO, childishly hostile. Now you mind your manners, sonny! (How does THAT feel?)

You have the right to "take umbrage" about anything you want. I don't remember your "umbrage" pointing at Apisa when he is insulting to others(we needn't debate whether that's happened often, do we?), but if you want to call me "sonny", feel free. Apisa gives no respect, and he gets none, from me.

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Momma- I agree with you. I make it my business NOT to resort to name calling, and making insulting remarks. I think that I have been, for the most part, successful at not personally attacking anyone.

Personal attacks really cloud the issue. All they serve to do is to elicit negative emotional reactions and defensiveness.

Calling an older person "gramps" IMO, is hitting below the belt. To me it is an ageist remark, having a similar emotional tone of the racist remark of calling a black male "boy".

Calling some one a jerk or an idiot is rude, but does not have the same kind of connotation as would "gramps", or "boy"!

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Phoenix,

I gotcha! You have never been rude to me. I have always enjoyed our chats. Maybe we can show everyone else how they CAN play nice and still disagree?

Hope you have a wonderful day!

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You too, Momma!

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Quote:

Yes, it may be insulting to Frank what Snood said, but why do you come to his defense when Frank has called others names?

Momma- This particular form of pissing contest has been going on for some time, and I HAVE "called" Frank on this. Check the date:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1527792#1527792

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
Yes, it may be insulting to Frank what Snood said, but why do you come to his defense when Frank has called others names?

Momma- This particular form of pissing contest has been going on for some time, and I HAVE "called" Frank on this. Check the date:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1527792#1527792

Phoenix, my friend,

Then I withdraw my remark. Please forgive me. I am glad that there are those that will stand up and try to make peace when things get out of hand. I, too, am guilty of getting into those contests from time to time and appreciate it when I am called on it. It's not the type of behavior I wish to engage in and I don't believe it's what you want either.

It's just too bad we all get to that overheated point, isn't it?

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Just for the record though, ladies, I would far rather be called Granny than an idiot or a liar or pathetic or any number of other insulting adjectives. But in truth, I also think adults can make their point without being insulting. I just figure when they are insulting, they don't have a point. Smile

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Foxfyre wrote:

Just for the record though, ladies, I would far rather be called Granny than an idiot or a liar or pathetic or any number of other insulting adjectives. But in truth, I also think adults can make their point without being insulting. I just figure when they are insulting, they don't have a point.

One...I have had many more insults hurled my way than I have dished out.

Two...hearing a lecture on insults from someone who regularly calls people who disagree with her position "baby killers" is almost too funny to bear.

Three...I called you a liar after you posted an egregious untruth...and repeated it after having it called to your attention. Telling someone they should not call a liar a "liar" is censorship...laughable censorship at that.

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Frank, if you can find a single quote of mind where I referred to anyone with the term 'baby killer' I'll send a $100 contribution to Planned Parenthood. Nor have I told a single lie except in your own wierd mind. I've already withdrawn from the debate, but I'll have to keep pointing out the lack of merit (or truth) in your insults directed at me.

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Foxfyre and nobody else that I have seen post on these forums has ever used the term "baby killer" I have only seen these words written by Frank Apisa in a veiled attempt to discredit Foxfyre. Does this make Frank a liar? Hmmm.

At least he is consistent and never gives up.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Just for the record though, ladies, I would far rather be called Granny than an idiot or a liar or pathetic or any number of other insulting adjectives. But in truth, I also think adults can make their point without being insulting. I just figure when they are insulting, they don't have a point.

Foxfyre- I don't want to beat this to death, but I think that you missed my point. There are some words that people throw out when they are angry, that are downright nasty. Idiot, liar and pathetic are three examples of that, and, IMO, do not belong in a discussion amongst adults. Usually, the words are a reaction to what someone has written, and, rightly or wrongly, describe the person's reaction to what the writer has written.

If a writer often throws out the word "Gramps", "granny" "boy" in a pejorative manner, he is not reacting to the other person's words. (although he may be reacting with anger, in general) He is throwing out an emotionally loaded word, which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The words are meant to hurt, and add nothing to the discussion.

The difference between, let's say, "Gramps" (and other words of that ilk, such as reference to race, religion, national origin, or sexual orientation) and "liar" is that the former demeans the person as a person, whereas the second is an opinion as to the individual's behavior.

I have to reiterate that I think that in an adult discussion it is probably almost never necessary or appropriate to resort to name calling, of any kind.

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You get no argument from me on that point, Phoenix. Once the insults start flying, the debate is not fun anymore and usually does just become one more p***ing match as was mentioned before.

I didn't intend to approve 'gramps' or 'granny' as appropriate in a debate either, though I am not one to stand on political correctness all that much. And for that reason, being called 'granny' wouldn't particularly bother me--I tend to wear that title as a badge of honor and proof of some additional track time and authority. Smile

I do appreciate that others will find it demeaning and insulting though I still think less so than being called some other things.

I really am on your side on this one. I favor keeping personal insults to a minimum in all debates so that real discussions can happen. I don't see any way around the problem of a particular point of view being regarded as 'offensive' or 'insulting' by some, but we can deal with those.

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ABORTION.......

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