That is your opinion and you are certainly welome to it. Your coining of the phrase Christian is, however, certainly out of context.
Phoenix32890 wrote:I am with Frank and Dys. I have often written that I might not respect a person's beliefs, but I respect that person's right to hold those beliefs...............as long as those beliefs do not affect me.
Apparently, there are people who would lobby to change laws, based on religious beliefs, that would take the right of a woman to have autonomy over her own body.
I understand Frank's stand on eradicating religion. To me, in a perfect world, religion would have no impact on the lives of people beyond the personal sphere. As it is now, there are people who are using religion to attempt to deprive people of their own personal autonomy. For that reason, I would be happy if the entire concept of religion would simply go away.
I know it won't, and I certainly would not attempt to change laws to deprive people of exercising their religious beliefs. I think that my attitude is a lot more "Christian" (to coin a phrase :wink: ) than the attitudes some so-called Christians.
Hi Phoenix,
Well, I believed abortion was wrong before I became a Christian.
Intrepid wrote:It is simply being put to death to make someone else's life more convenient. Period.
That is your opinion.
Nothing more.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Phoenix, you're absolutely correct.
And nobody has yet addressed the issue of the morality of killing an unborn child purely for the convenience of the mother. I wonder how many of the anti-religion types, who are mostly also the pro-abortion types, would dare provide a rationale for why it should be illegal to kill a child who is less than an hour old, but it should be completely legal to kill it for any reason if it has not quite fully emerged from the birth canal.
Quote:Well, I believed abortion was wrong before I became a Christian.
Ok then, did you also believe (before you were a christian) that you had the right to remove rights from others? Personally, I have always had the belief that religion encompassing mysticism was wrong but never in my life have I advocated that others should be denied, by law, the right to believe whatever they wanted to.
Dys,
I believe it is wrong to kill a child. Killing anyone is wrong (of course, there is self-defense, etc.). So, am I taking away the right of a murderer because I want strict laws against it?
If I equate the killing of an innocent child in the womb as I would anyone committing murder, then I do not consider the woman having any more of a right to kill the child then I would a murderer to kill anyone.
Phoenix,
Just because something is legal in the eyes of man, does not make it right to do.
ehBeth wrote:Intrepid wrote:It is simply being put to death to make someone else's life more convenient. Period.
That is your opinion.
Nothing more.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Phoenix, you're absolutely correct.
Of course. It is nothing but our opinions. You are not making any revelation on this. Yours, mine, Frank's, Phoenix's, Dys, MA's, Real's et al. Opinion which we all have the "right" to hold.
Foxfyre wrote: I wonder how many of the anti-religion types, who are mostly also the pro-abortion types
You're making a huge assumption here, Foxfyre. Many religious people, including many Christians, are pro-choice.
MA
you are taking as many jabs at me as I am taking at you.
I personally think I have been keeping a reasonable attitude in these discussions since we had that heart-to-heart last month
and I am simply disregarding all this nonsense being thrown at me about my deportment. Frankly, I think my opponents in this discussion have been much, much ruder to me than I have been to them for at least a month.
In any case, let me try another explanation:
*****
You have a right to religious practice.
An American woman has a right to an abortion should she choose to terminate her pregnancy.
All equal so far.
*****
I despise religion and consider it an evil
and would love to see it erased from the face of the planet.
You despise abortion and consider it an evil
and would love to see it erased from the face of the planet.
All still equal so far.
*****
I am presenting arguments here in this forum on the Internet advocating my position and giving reasons for that advocacy.
You are presenting arguments here in this forum on the Internet advocating your position and giving reasons for that advocacy.
All still equal so far.
*****
I am not arguing for any laws to make the practice of religion illegal
or to impede your right to choose to practice a religion. I am not attempting to use laws to take away your right to have a religion. I am hoping people will see religion for the superstitious nonsense I see it to be
and voluntarily withdraw from it
but I am not advocating ANY LAWS to prohibit it.
You are arguing for laws that will make choosing an abortion illegal. You are arguing for laws that will impede a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body. You are attempting to use laws to take away a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.
END OF EQUALITY. WE ARE NOW DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED.
*****
And it should be clear to you by now that the fact that I despise religion; consider it an evil; hope that it is eradicated from the planet; and argue and advocate in that direction on the Internet
in no way conflicts with the fact that I want to protect a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy if she chooses.
Does that make it any clearer?
We really should not even be arguing this stuff. You want to make it seem that I am being inconsistent or hypocritical by having these two positions...but I am not being either...and you will never make that case.
I don't deny that ehBeth. I'm one of them. Perhaps, however, you could point out the anti-religion people on this thread who are prolife?
Phoenix32890 wrote:Quote:why it should be illegal to kill a child who is less than an hour old, but it should be completely legal to kill it for any reason if it has not quite fully emerged from the birth canal.
Simple- A fetus does not have the legal rights of a human being. The fetus BECOMES a legal human being, when it has completely emerged from the birth canal.
Putting the legal definition aside. Do you consider the moral consequences of killing a child less than a hour old different than killing
it for any reason if it has not quite fully emerged from the birth canal? Remember, neither is illegal in this scenerio...only moral.
I should qualify my previous post that I am not pro-abortion in the sense that I think anyone should be able to kill the child they carry for any reason at any time. I am pro choice in the sense that I have seen and do approve of abortion in very narrowly defined extreme cases.
ehBeth wrote:Foxfyre wrote: I wonder how many of the anti-religion types, who are mostly also the pro-abortion types
You're making a huge assumption here, Foxfyre. Many religious people, including many Christians, are pro-choice.
You are also making a huge assumption. Does anyone have statistics? If so, let's see them.
Frank,
I was not trying to point out anything inconsistent or hypocritical. I was just trying to understand it completely. What you just posted makes me understand. Thank you.
Phoenix, the difference here is I don't think a woman has the right to make that choice. I don't believe anyone has the right to decide whether a growing human being should be killed.
Foxfyre wrote:I don't deny that ehBeth. I'm one of them. Perhaps, however, you could point out the anti-religion people on this thread who are prolife?
I AM PRO-LIFE.
I THINK DAMN NEAR EVERY ANTI-RELIGIOUS PERSON ON THIS THREAD IS PRO-LIFE.
In fact, you cannot imagine how much I bristle at you anti-choice people co-opting the term "pro-life."
They're trying to deflect the issue again Intrepid. I should qualify my previous post to state that I think it is neither moral nor ethical or should be legal to kill a baby, born or unborn, for any reason, at any time.
But they don't want to deal with the morality of killing a baby. They want to say that the legal right to do so is sufficient to make it okay.
And just to make my position even more clear, I agree with Foxfyre's last post 100%.
