ABORTION.......

Frank Apisa Wrote:

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You seem to be particularly confused today, MA. Problems in your life perhaps???

I have mentioned MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY times that I would like the eradication of religion to be a voluntary, evolutionary step humanity takes.

I want humans to exercise the choice to give up superstition.

It is a choice, MA...A CHOICE.

And I have actually encouraged you to fight against it. I have not tried to get you to stop.

But you are very cute when you think you have made a point and you are being smug about it.

I love that.

Truly.

Actually, today is a particularly great day for me. No problems. Oh yes, Frank. I know, it's a choice. And you justify your 'choice' by wanting me to voluntarily give up my right.

You have stated "from your lips to God's ears" when I asked if you would like all the churches destroyed too.

You want freedom from all religion, Frank. C'mon, I admitted that in my wanting to ban abortion the woman's choice was being taken away from her. You won't give an inch will you?

Smug? Not smug. Just have to 'take' the points because you refuse to give them.

Explain it all you want in any way you want. You want no religion. If you want no religion and get your way, I lose my rights.

I already have the right to freedom of religion, Frank. So, I already have the right to give it up voluntarily if I want to. So, that's a moot point, wouldn't you say?

Nice try though.

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Ah, now I get it, the 35 million figure is the total number of abortions that have been performed in the US of A since 1973.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Actually, today is a particularly great day for me. No problems.

Great!

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Oh yes, Frank. I know, it's a choice. And you justify your 'choice' by wanting me to voluntarily give up my right.

I don't have to justify my hopes that humanity will eventually give up superstition. It is a hope that I have. And insofar as I can get others to consider it...I will. But I don't have to justify it.

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You have stated "from your lips to God's ears" when I asked if you would like all the churches destroyed too.

Yep. I thought that was a rather clever bit of sarcasm and irony.

For the record...I would be very, very pleased if religion vanished from the planet...and if all churches vanished with it.

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You want freedom from all religion, Frank. C'mon, I admitted that in my wanting to ban abortion the woman's choice was being taken away from her. You won't give an inch will you?

I am more than willing to "give an inch" in that I want religion to vanish from the face of the planet. What on earth do you want me to "give an inch" on?

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Smug? Not smug. Just have to 'take' the points because you refuse to give them.

I do not understand this.

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Explain it all you want in any way you want. You want no religion.

Wow!

YES, MA....I WANT ALL RELIGION TO VANISH FROM THE FACE OF THE PLANET.[/[/size]B]

[quote] you want no religion and (if you) get your way, I lose my rights.[/quote]

I WANT YOU AND ALL OTHER SUPERSTITIOUS PEOPLE TO VOLUNTARILY GIVE UP THEIR RIGHT TO BE SUPERSTITIOUS.

You will not lose anything if you give it up.

I don't for one second suppose you will choose to give it up...but I want you to have that right...and I can certainly hope you choose it.

What is your problem with that...and why are you trying to shoehorn it into a discussion about a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy if she chooses...when my position on both are identical.

I am arguing for choice in both situations.

[quote]I already have the right to freedom of religion, Frank. So, I already have the right to give it up voluntarily if I want to. So, that's a moot point, wouldn't you say?[/quote]

So...I am saying that I hope you exercise that choice the way I want you to. I recognize that you have a choice to exercise it the other way...and I am satisfied with that.

Since you insist on bringing this into a discussion of a woman's right to choose to terminate her pregnancy...why don't you take that same position on that issue?

[quote]Nice try though.[/quote]

You are so far off base...it is a wonder you persist!

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I ALREADY HAVE THAT RIGHT! YOU ARE THE ONE THAT WANTS IT CHANGED!

And you have that right too. We both have that right to that choice.

So, if I said I want women to voluntarily give up the right to have an abortion, this would mean exactly what to you?

And, I persist because I BELIEVE IN THIS!

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Momma Angel wrote:

I ALREADY HAVE THAT RIGHT! YOU ARE THE ONE THAT WANTS IT CHANGED!

And you have that right too. We both have that right to that choice.

So, if I said I want women to voluntarily give up the right to have an abortion, this would mean exactly what to you?

And, I persist because I BELIEVE IN THIS!

If what you are saying is that you want a woman to voluntarily not have an abortion if she doesn't want one...we are in agreement.

I do not want to force women to have an abortion against their will either.

What is your problem with this?

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Frank,

I want them to give up the right to the choice. I don't want them to have the choice.

You want to eradicate religion.

Same thing. I don't have a problem Frank. I know what I mean.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank Apisa Wrote:

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Yeah...you holy rollers want to vote on whether or not a woman can make a decision to terminate a pregnancy or not. You seem to think it is perfectly okay for you folks to make that decision for her...but that there is something wrong with her making it for herself.

Egad. What do they feed you to get into this condition?

Let's rewrite that shall we Frank? Let's see...

You non-believers (specifically Frank) want to vote whether or not a person can make the decision to practice Christianity or not. You seem to think it is perfectly okay for you folks to make that decision for others...but that there is something wrong with us making it for ourselves.

Frank, I couldn't have said it better myself!

Perhaps we should keep in mind that it is not just Christians who oppose abortion. It is also non Christians who have high moral values who also oppose abortion.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

I want them to give up the right to the choice. I don't want them to have the choice.
Frank wants them to have the choice
You want to eradicate religion.
Frank wants you to have the choice (he has a preference on the outcome)Same thing. I don't have a problem Frank. I know what I mean.

Major difference here, Frank (as I see it) wants everyone to be able to exercise choice, even if he doesn't agree with it, whereas you MA want to tack away choice from others.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

I want them to give up the right to the choice. I don't want them to have the choice.

Yes...I know you do not want them to have the choice.

That is why I will fight you with every everything I can bring to bear.

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You want to eradicate religion.

Yes...I would be delighted if religion were to disappear from the earth. But I have never said that I do not want you to have the choice.

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Same thing.

Yeah...about like a "pig" and a "bicycle" are the same thing.

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I don't have a problem Frank.

You've got problems, MA. Big ones.

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know what I mean.

I'm sure you do.

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Intrepid wrote:

Perhaps we should keep in mind that it is not just Christians who oppose abortion. It is also non Christians who have high moral values who also oppose abortion.

Just as there are Christians and non-Christians of high moral values who oppose trying to take away the right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy if she chooses.

So what is your point?

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Dys,

Yes, I want women to not have the right to kill a child. I will not argue with that.

Yes, he has a preference on the outcome. I can understand that position.

But, please explain to me how wanting to eradicate religion and doing everything he can do to those ends, does anything but try to take away my choice?

I want to eradicate abortion and I will do what I can legally to do that. To me, this is the same thing.

If I already have the freedom of that choice I don't see Frank's need to try to change it.

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Fine, I have problems. You have problems. We all have problems.

Just because I happen to understand something differently than you do or differ with you does not mean I have big problems, Frank. It just means we are different, no more, no less.

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But, please explain to me how wanting to eradicate religion and doing everything he can do to those ends, does anything but try to take away my choice?

The "wanting to eradicate religion" is a simple idea(l) it is not a demand or request that religion be eradicated by law (nice thought though) MA what you apparently fail to understand is that Frank (and many of us) do not advocate legal banning of choices (religious or otherwise) whereas you do ineed advocate the banning of choices. You actually advocate taking away legal status of adult women and replace them with legal status of non-born. You are, in effect, asking that laws be enacted which reduce rights of self-determination I assume on religious merit for any and all others whether or not they ascribe to your religious beliefs. You demand the right to take away rights from others, I believe you do not have this right under the constitution of the US of A.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Fine, I have problems. You have problems. We all have problems.

Just two posts agoyou said you had no problems.

I said you did.

Now you are saying that you do have problems.

Do you see a problem here????

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Just because I happen to understand something differently than you do or differ with you does not mean I have big problems, Frank.

No it doesn't. But it sure as heck doesn't mean that you do NOT have big problems, MA.

But from the tone of your last few postsI am still guessing that you have big problems.

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It just means we are different, no more, no less.

We are definitely different, you and I, MAand I will fight anyone who suggests otherwise.

Twisted Evil

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Dys...

...thank you for your comments.

We are on the same page of the same book.

I'm not sure were MA is...but her need to tie my comments about religion into this discussion of abortion...simply because both are about supposed "rights"...is ill-conceived, illlogical...

...and just plain "ill."

MA's heart is in the right place...I am sure of that. But she is so far off track here...that her best move is to abandon this tack and get back to battling the question at hand.

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Frank,

Look, I am trying very hard to understand your position. If I don't understand something, I ask questions. I will ask questions until I do understand.

I am sorry if it is inconvenient, a pain in the butt, or whatever it is to you. I am doing my best to understand and all you do is make fun and poke jabs at me.

I am trying to understand your position. You aren't making it any easier on me to do so.

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Frank sure likes to use that evil emoticon. Perhaps he has major problems.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Dys...

...thank you for your comments.

We are on the same page of the same book.

I'm not sure were MA is...but her need to tie my comments about religion into this discussion of abortion...simply because both are about supposed "rights"...is ill-conceived, illlogical...

...and just plain "ill."

MA's heart is in the right place...I am sure of that. But she is so far off track here...that her best move is to abandon this tack and get back to battling the question at hand.

The question at hand is the reason that abortion is wrong. It is taking the life of the unborn child who has committed no wrong. In other words, the child is not being put to death for a sin or something horrible that it has committed. It is simply being put to death to make someone else's life more convenient. Period. The legality of abortion notwithstanding... it is wrong and can never be right. It is pathetic that thinking people can actually agree with this killing of innocent life.

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I am with Frank and Dys. I have often written that I might not respect a person's beliefs, but I respect that person's right to hold those beliefs...............as long as those beliefs do not affect me.

Apparently, there are people who would lobby to change laws, based on religious beliefs, that would take the right of a woman to have autonomy over her own body.

I understand Frank's stand on eradicating religion. To me, in a perfect world, religion would have no impact on the lives of people beyond the personal sphere. As it is now, there are people who are using religion to attempt to deprive people of their own personal autonomy. For that reason, I would be happy if the entire concept of religion would simply go away.

I know it won't, and I certainly would not attempt to change laws to deprive people of exercising their religious beliefs. I think that my attitude is a lot more "Christian" (to coin a phrase :wink: ) than the attitudes some so-called Christians.

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