ABORTION.......

Damn...you know about that!

Last week...on my regular walk around town...I decided to visit St. Patrick's Cathedral on Fifth Avenue.

Wouldn't these guys all love to have a picture of me being frisked by the guards there. Somebody musta snitched on me...or I look like a terrorist, because they gave me a good look over.

Maybe the beard looked out of place with the habit...but I didn't think so.

Churches in New York. Maybe that'll be the October tour.
Good thing I got two more memory sticks.

A lot happens here in a little time!

The first thing that I noticed was that Levron did not answer my question. Why? I'm guessing I'll never get an answer to that q.

I want to add my bit because I keep seeing posts that underhandedly slap women who chose abortion. You may not be intending to make personal jabs at the character of these people, but you are.

Let me make this perfectly clear:
Abortions are horrible. They are often traumatizing. They are never fun.
For many women it is the emotional and spiritual equivalent of losing a born child.
When a woman is grieving after an abortion, she needs love and caring.
Instead, she is often met with condemnation. This is devastating.
Imagine being in those shoes.
If you can't imagine ever choosing to have an abortion, then why not talk to women who have and hear them out? You'll find they are just like you. No better, no worse. Just different life circumstances.

Man, I cringe every time I hear someone suggest that adoption is always preferable to abortion. That just isn't the case.

Frank and others, what difference does it make when a child is considered a child or a fetus or a whatever? What difference does it make if you think it has a soul or not? If you grew up believing that trees had souls, would that mean you would never allow a tree to be cut? Would it stop us from pouring concrete over everything that isn't defined as a human being?
If in your mind it is 'just a fetus' or 'cancerous tumor cells', does that suddenly mean that we can treat it as anything but a part of life? Religious or not, doesn't common sense tell you that the world is not just here for our pleasure and experimentation? Even actual cancer growing in the body deserves respect. If you neglect to respect it, all you'll do is help to destroy yourself.
I'm talking about basic respect for life. When you respect something, you don't dissect it and then decide whether you will allow it to live or die. You work with it as it is.

I'm sorry that I am coming across accusing. I don't know you people or how you live your life. I'm just raising questions.

Any woman will tell you that an everpowerful connection is already made when a woman even THINKS she's pregnant.
And, the connection can be made with a child who is not biologically related at all. Men also can have unspeakable connections with other life.
It doesn't matter how we explain it, it matters that it is.
I think our basic human wisdom needs to be respected more now than ever. Sometimes it seems like we're too frickin' smart for our own good.

Good post, flushd.

Lots for people to think about.

I think your comment about respect was truly on point.

<nice to meet you - welcome to A2K>

flushd,

Excellent post! You addressed the topic and yet did not condemn nor criticize. Now, that's what I call a part of a discussion.

I cannot in my wildest imagination conceive of what a woman faced with many of the situations concerning pregnancy goes through. I have never had a child. I was pregnant once but miscarried so I can identify with feeling the loss of a child.

I love the way you put it so simply. Why concern ourselves with all the questions that don't bring us to a resolution. I, myself, do not believe in abortion, but that is my belief. If abortion is legal then I believe the woman has the right to make that choice. However, I do feel that choice is now between her and God. I am one for if we don't like the laws, then let's identify how they need to be changed and work on changing them. We have the knowledge, we have the skills, and we must certainly have the time.

Welcome flushd;
Yeah. If a fetus is not a person, why do women mourn when they suffer a miscarriage?

neo - ever hear about mourning lost opportunities? We don't just mourn the loss of people.

So, it magically becomes alive when it hits oxygen...?

When?

The following is not intended to change anyone's mind or even advance a point, BUT..... if life begins at conception, then why do we celebrate the BIRTHday. Why not celebrate your conception-day.

Wow! I never thought about that. But, I can only think of one reason for celebrating the birth instead of the conception date. You definitely know when the birth date is, as with the conception date you don't.

Nothing "magical" about it. Words have meanings. A fetus....means a fetus. A child...means a child. A fetus is not a child....just like an egg is not a chicken.

When it is an embryo or a fetus...it is living tissue. No one here is disputing that. BUT IT IS NOT A LIVING HUMAN BEING while it is a fetus or an embryo.

Nothing magical about it.

Some cultures do. i.e. Chinese

USA
An unborn child is a child in utero: "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb," according to legislation which passed the US Senate in March 2004.

Since the 1970s in the United States, a debate has alternately raged or simmered over the "personhood" of the fetus before birth. Arguments regarding the personhood of a fetus are particularly relevant to debates over the legal and moral status of abortions

It matters, because some of these zealots keep referring to the embryo or the fetus as a child or a baby. An embryo is an embryo...and a fetus is a fetus. Both can develop into a child...or a baby...but neither is a child or a baby. It matters, because some of these zealots keep referring to abortion as murder.





The differnce is that some of the zealots keep talking about the terrible injustice done to the "child."

But if they are right that the "soul" of the aborted fetus goes to Heaven to spend eternity in bliss with their god....there is no terrible injustice. That's what difference it makes.





No...and I am not suggesting that we do. I am merely championing a woman's right to have an abortion if she chooses.

Why do I have to be accused of this other crap?




No, it doesn't. I have absolutely no idea of what the world is here for.

Do you?

And if you do...how do you know it?





I had cancer growing in my body...and I sure as hell didn't "respect" it in any reasonable sense of that word. I had the goddam thing cut out...and then I underwent chemo and radiation therepy.

What the hell are you talking about here?




Well you can talk about whatever you want. I am talking about a woman's right to obtain a legal abortion should she choose...and not have that right taken away because of the superstitions these people have.




No problem. Some people actually think I come across that way at times.




Could be!

Do you think that abortions should remain legal or not?

Yeah...like I want those ignorant as sholes defining the words in contention here.

Gimme a goddam break.

Yes...we've managed to get a bunch of politicians into office who are willing to cater to you relgious nuts in order to stay in office...which is one reason why I suggest to everyone involved here to never let up in fighting this monstrous plan to deny a woman the right to have a legal abortion if she chooses...primarily because of the superstitions of a some loony tunes.




Now here, Intrepid, we are in complete agreement...although we are on opposite sides of the resolution of the question.

flushd,

Be wary here, if you are a Christian or have any beliefs even resembling Christianity, you more than likely will fall into the same trap with Frank as I did.

Frank has stated very succinctly to all of us that he is right and we are wrong. So, there is no room for debate here.

Your words will be twisted and distorted. Frank has stated he lives to bash Christians.

And, these are not merely my opinion, these are things Frank has said himself. Actually, I think we should have a warning on most, if not all of Frank's posts. You know, something like WARNING: CHRISTIANS BEWARE - CHRISTIAN HATER AHEAD. And, this is all said in the spirit of jest, but they are Frank's words.

Well folks, there you have it. Frank hates the politicians too. They prove him wrong and he calls them names. Obviously, Frank does not agree with legislation unless it benefits Frank.

I suppose Frank thinks he is a big man when he takes the Lord's name in vain. Perhaps he should think about the end time if he is wrong.

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends ~ Japanese Proverb ... I have not seen too many here who count themselves as Frank's friends.

I'm a friend of Frank's and I've argued with him, although not about this exact thing. There are many friends here who argue on different sides of issues. A2k is in part about arguing and arguing well.

Intrepid, I think you'll find Frank is not without friends here at A2K.

Some of us have posted with him, argued with him, agreed with him, and thrown things at him for many years.

Even when I don't agree with him, I respect him, and am proud to be considered among his friends.