No I am not assuming the "free pass."
I said, "...according you your religion..."
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:No I am not assuming the "free pass."
I said, "...according you your religion..."
Frank, what makes you an expert on my religion? You don't even know what it is!
Lash wrote:I don't.
People are marrying children in Utah--raping their children, because they brought them into this world--and can take them out, if they please....
I don't usually argue morality in the context of this thread--but I am comfortable in saying I don't trust people to do what they believe is right. I don't trust what they deem right to always even be decent or humane.
This is where it starts to get confusing, we have, consistently heard from Foxfyre that majority rules (no definiton of universe of majority, is it neighborhood, community, township, city, state or nation?) there are many locales in southern utah/northern arizona where Mormons are a definite majority which means, in effect, that the justice/courts, police, city government, school board are Mormon and these same demographics support mulitple marriages including 13 year olds to brother members of the "church." Now I realize that when Foxfyre speaks of "majority rules" she is contenting that "christians" (also undefined) are the majority and therefore, right. I have consistently offered the opinion that "majority rules" is more ofthen than not, mob rule. The secondary issue is, of course, "morality" in subservience to "law." "morality" in general being assumed to be some sort of "christian ethic" whereas "law" is man created for the purpose of social coehesion/stabilty. The very nature of abortion comes under the general concept of "morality" vs law as we have seen in the many pages of posts above. Albeit, abortion is a sticky wicket with no clear solution in either "morality" or "law" for guidence, however, I do see it as clearly an issue of "law" advocating in favor of the mother over the fetus in it's current offering roe v wade. As I read it, the constituion is pretty specific in over-ruling "mob rule" in favor of "law." Ergo, I do not trust what "they" deem to be right any more than Lash does. (different reasons of course)
Intrepid wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:No I am not assuming the "free pass."
I said, "...according you your religion..."
Frank, what makes you an expert on my religion? You don't even know what it is!
Intrepid...get real.
Intrepid wrote:This is not a just a medical procedure.
That is your opinion.
Mine is that an abortion is a medical procedure, and that any decisions related to it belong only to the woman and her doctor.
I'm a Christian. You're a Christian. We have differing opinions.
None of us knows what "the rules" of the universe are. Are Christians of any sort God's flavour? We don't know. In the meantime all of us have to proceed with what we believe is right. I'm not going to interfere with your right to not have an abortion - and I hope all Christians respect the rights of others to do what they believe is right.
Frank Apisa wrote:Intrepid wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:No I am not assuming the "free pass."
I said, "...according you your religion..."
Frank, what makes you an expert on my religion? You don't even know what it is!
Intrepid...get real.
Do you know where he is?
Intrepid wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:Intrepid wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:No I am not assuming the "free pass."
I said, "...according you your religion..."
Frank, what makes you an expert on my religion? You don't even know what it is!
Intrepid...get real.
Do you know where he is?
Now that was funny...and I needed a laugh this morning. Thanks...and I mean it.
Anyway...I AM assuming you are a Christian...and many items in many posts cause me to assume that way...but you are absolutely correct...I do not know you religion.
I guess I should have written: "....according to the preponderance of Christian thinking...." or something like that. You are an excellent debater...and I'd be surprised if you couldn't find plenty wrong even with that...
....but you understand where I was coming from in the original statement.
Or at least, that is my guess.
I prefer to think of myself as a man of God. Make that a child of God.
You leave an opening and I take it ;-)
Yes, I am a Christian. Christian is a broad term with many different denominations, thoughts, opinions etc. Church views change and widen. The doctrine does not, or should not, change but Christians must also adapt to the times without falling away from the doctrine. There are Christians who I do not agree with...we are not all puppets and we do not all follow along mindlessly. Not all Christians are tolerant or all loving or perhaps even faithful. There are passive Christians and there are active Christians. There are those who know the goal of their faith and there are those who not only don't know what the goal is, but refuse to take the narrow road to get there. Yes, I am a Christian but I prefer to think of myself as a man of God. Make that a child of God.
I believe it is best for ALL people to end up in heaven for all eternity. So I suppose the answer to your convoluted question would be yes.
I think, Frank, the logic you are trying to use doesn't take into account the religious belief that everyone is deserving of death. They are not innocent. They have inherent wickedness which comes from being from Adam's lineage. Jesus on the other hand comes from God's lineage.
The bible says God hates sin. He REALLY hates sin.
The bible says that the wages of sin is death. If you sin you deserve to die- unless you are perfect. The bible says there was only one perfect man- Jesus. Jesus did not sin. The bible says we are all sinners and deserving of death. The bible says God is not a respecter of persons. God does not distinguish between one sin and another sin. That means no sinner is any more righteous than Jeffrey Dalmer or Charles Manson or Jack the Ripper, etc. All sinfulness is punishable by death. We are all sinners. That's why people die.
God said that sin is punishable by death. God is perfect and his laws are just. He doesn't lie. If he has decreed that sin is punishable by death then sin is punishable by death. God is not a liar.
God loves you.
It probably doesn't sound like it from what I wrote above, but God loves you.
It's the difference between loving the sinner and hating the sin. God can't suddenly start telling people that sinful wickedness is okay...
... and that he was lying when he said people must die for their sins.
He must be perfect, he must be just, and thank goodness he is.
Isn't that what we would want? In the end justice will prevail. When sinners die for their sins God can't just turn around and raise sinners back up to life because then they wouldn't be dead and that would make him a liar.
God loves you. God loves you so much that he sent his perfect son to die on the cross for you.
Jesus didn't deserve to die. He was perfect, so why did he die? He loves you so much that he died so that his perfect life might be given in exchange for yours.
God said that death was required as payment for sin.
Because we are sinners we must die, but now God can raise us up because Jesus has paid the price that holds us to the bonds of death.
We are raised up in Christ into his heavenly kingdom for eternity. John 3:16
People are not saved by their goodness. They are saved because of God's great love. Did I mention God loves you. Trust in that love.
We have forgiveness of our sins, we can be human and make mistakes and be forgiven. We don't have to be so hard on ourselves or others. We can forgive ourselves and others. Does that mean we have license to sin. The bible says no.
I'm not a bible scholar so you may want to check this with one.
Intrepid wrote:
You leave an opening and I take it ;-)
As well you should! And you do a good job of it.
Quote:Yes, I am a Christian. Christian is a broad term with many different denominations, thoughts, opinions etc. Church views change and widen. The doctrine does not, or should not, change but Christians must also adapt to the times without falling away from the doctrine. There are Christians who I do not agree with...we are not all puppets and we do not all follow along mindlessly. Not all Christians are tolerant or all loving or perhaps even faithful. There are passive Christians and there are active Christians. There are those who know the goal of their faith and there are those who not only don't know what the goal is, but refuse to take the narrow road to get there. Yes, I am a Christian but I prefer to think of myself as a man of God. Make that a child of God.
Okay...I understand and appreciate all that.
But let's get back to my question...which I will revise a bit to take into consideration the objections you raised:
To everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike, who asserts that a fetus is a "living human being"...and who also asserts that "living human beings" who die with a clean soul go to heaven to spend eternity in intimate contact with GOD....
...since the end result of an abortion (according to the "beliefs" of those people) is some pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and what is essentially a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
And if you are one of those people, Intrepid, I'd love to hear your take on the question.
And at some point...you really should deal with the question that has been asked so many times:
Since the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
I find your question more than a little disturbing but, okay, let's see.
The bible says Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins so that we might have salvation/ everlasting life. John 3:16 Does that mean he died so that women could kill their unborn children? I think Yes and No.
Yes, he died because people being human will do what they will do. Moses was a murderer, King David was a murderer. The bible says God has compassion (pity) on us because we are human and not perfect. Because we are unable to perfectly keep the law he allows us to be imperfect, human. We are not under the law, but under grace. (If we could keep the law perfectly we wouldn't need a savior.) The bible also says that even though we are under grace that does not give us license to sin. Jesus repeatedly told people to obey the commandments. The commandment says, Thou shalt not kill. We do not have license to kill.
If you don't believe that what you do is a sin or that you are doing anything wrong, there seem to be allowances for that in the bible- lack of understanding, having a good conscience toward God-are you following your conscience, etc.. If you try to follow the law but you make mistakes, the bible says that God has compassion to forgive, that is why Jesus died on the cross. Even if you go out and do things just because you can God understands you are human and you will do what you will. I'm not a bible scholar so you might want to check with others more knowledgable to be sure I am right. The thing is, only God is perfect. Only he can look into the hearts of people and judge them.
The bible says if we admit that we are sinners, imperfect, God will forgive us. It seems the trouble comes when we refuse to admit our sinfulness, when we think we are better than others and we lose our compassion and forgiveness towards others and become judgemental. There is the law, but the law is nothing without love. God said that he will be the judge. We shouldn't be trying to do God's job. Jesus said, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. The bible says to humble ourselves. That's really all that christianity is; God loving you and you loving him back.
You say..... the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)....and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
Sin costs. It cost Jesus everything he had. (Have you seen Mel Gibson's Passion of Christ?) Jesus was a righteous man. He was the only righteous man. He was God's son not Adam's relation. Jesus suffered grieviously at the hands of man and he did nothing to deserve it. Because he was righteous Jesus said he had only to call out to God and God would send legions of angels to avenge him. If at any time he felt that there was something he could not forgive mankind for he could have called for their destruction. Love is sacrifice, love costs. Christians know what it cost Christ. God loves us. Jesus loves us. When you look at that cross you can see how much he loves us. Never underestimate how great that love is or how much it cost. He loves you. The bible says that those who take up their cross and follow Jesus, those who forgive others of their sins for love even to the point of suffering and dying as Jesus did, will find great reward.
Does that give others license to kill them?
Frank,
First of all you know that I have stated that me and my Church do not approve of any method and means whereby a fertilized ovum is destroyed. The only case where this may be allowed would be in a case where the life of the mother was in jeopardy.
The stage of development does not matter..as soon as the egg is fertilized there should be no abortion. Having said this, I will attempt to respond to your specific question making the assumption that an abortion has already taken place.
In answer to your specific question, I do not believe that the soul of the child goes immediately to heaven. According to scripture, the body goes back to the ground. However, the soul and spirit enter into a realm which corresponds with their condition. There they remain, and, depending on the degree of their development, will either partake in the First or in the Second Resurrection.
Of course, in the case of the baby, their development would not take the same path as those who had sinned on earth. I contend, however, that they do not join God in heaven until the Resurrection. We read where, when Christ returns, he will gather those of the dead first and then those of the faithful who are on the earth at the time of his return. This can get really involved and there is much more to it, but I will provide this information in answer to your question. The end result will be that Satan will be subdued.
Of course, there are those that think the soul goes immediately to heaven. That would be easy and convenient, but that is now what is described in the scriptures.
I expect that you will jump on this like ugly on an ape, but this is my answer, my contention and my belief.
The only thing that is holding back the Son's return is those of us who continue to since and continue to be unrepentant.
I think you are quite correct, aurore. Arguing that the end justifies the means is a despicable position, in my view, as well.
Frank said....... sin is really nothing more than something a human does that offends your god
Do you believe that there is wickedness in the world?
If so, who/what is to say what is and isn't wicked? Is there anyone capable of knowing everything so that they can discern good and evil, or how things should and should not be? Some people believe there is a God who knows everything. He knows things that we can't fathom because they are beyond our capability.
Frank said......If your god is offended by so many things humans do...why doesn't it go to some other galaxy and make some perfect humans instead of making imperfect ones and then going ape because they are imperfect?
Perhaps people are imperfect because we have free will and/or perhaps it has something to do with Adam eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Seems like everything changed after that.
Frank said.....Why can't god simply say...well, I use to think that two men making love was an offense against me...but I no longer do. It is no longer a sin.
When you read about marriage in the bible what is described is how God created the world to be. That hasn't changed. When a person says that homosexuality is wrong, that is a judgement. God tells us not to judge. Nobody should be telling others they are wrong. Who can discern? God made things to be a certain way. I can tell you what God says in the bible, how it says he created things to be, but I'm not supposed to judge. When It comes to homosexuality all I can say is that God has allowed it and if God has allowed it then who am I or anybody to say they are wrong. That is something that is between a person's conscience and God. Only he can look into that person's heart.
Jesus was confronted by a group of religious men who brought an adulteress before him. They wanted to stone her for being a sinner, but Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. How could they throw stones if they were not perfect themselves? Everybody disappeared but one. There still was one person there who was perfect. Jesus asked the woman, woman where are thine accusers. She told him they were gone. Then Jesus who was perfect said, ( and listen carefully now) Jesus said neither do I accuse you, go and sin no more. Jesus wasn't here to condemn people, he was here to forgive them. Some people say that Jesus is God made man. The bible seems to imply that the law without love, without compassion is just a bunch of empty words. Forgiveness doesn't change the way God created the world to be. Jesus' death didn't change the law it just fulfilled it. I often hear people talk about homosexuals as if they are the only sinners in the world. The bible says everyone is a sinner.
Frank said.....If your god is actually GOD...It can do anything It wants.
Not true. Our God is a just God. He must be consistent. He's not a wild card.
God must be true to himself. If he is just he cannot change. Either God is right and I am wrong or I am right and God is wrong. I'm not perfect. I'm a sinner. I need God.
Frank said (of Jesus)......Well if his old man were such a murderous barbarian...maybe he would not have had to die for anything...much less my sins.
It wasn't God who gave Jesus forty lashes, people did. It wasn't God who mocked and made fun of him, people did. It wasn't God who placed a crown of thorns on his head, people did. It wasn't God who drove nails into his hands and feet, people did. Because he was righteous Jesus said he only had to call out to God and God would send legions of angels to avenge him. Jesus didn't endure these things because God is murderous. If at any time he felt that there was something he could not forgive mankind for he could have stopped the whole thing by calling for justice. If God is right and mankind is wrong who would be spared should God mete out the justice that mankind deserved? Jesus had to forgive if we were to have salvation. Some people say that Jesus is God made man. He had to endure everything mankind was capable of and forgive them for it. We can trust in that forgiveness. Don't let any self righteous individual tell you any different. It was a heck of a price to pay but Jesus did it because, like God, he loves us.
I believe what you see going on between the bible based church and homosexuals isn't about righteousness. Jesus is the beginning and end of righteousness. What is going on in the church has to do with license. There are people in the church who want to justify their actions not by trusting in God's mercy but by saying God is wrong and they are right. The controversy also has something to do with following Christ's example.
We have free will, we have a just god, we have a compassionate god, we have salvation.
