And at some point...you really should deal with the question that has been asked so many times:
Since the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
I find your question more than a little disturbing but, okay, let's see.
The bible says Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins so that we might have salvation/ everlasting life. John 3:16 Does that mean he died so that women could kill their unborn children? I think Yes and No.
Yes, he died because people being human will do what they will do. Moses was a murderer, King David was a murderer. The bible says God has compassion (pity) on us because we are human and not perfect. Because we are unable to perfectly keep the law he allows us to be imperfect, human. We are not under the law, but under grace. (If we could keep the law perfectly we wouldn't need a savior.) The bible also says that even though we are under grace that does not give us license to sin. Jesus repeatedly told people to obey the commandments. The commandment says, Thou shalt not kill. We do not have license to kill.
If you don't believe that what you do is a sin or that you are doing anything wrong, there seem to be allowances for that in the bible- lack of understanding, having a good conscience toward God-are you following your conscience, etc.. If you try to follow the law but you make mistakes, the bible says that God has compassion to forgive, that is why Jesus died on the cross. Even if you go out and do things just because you can God understands you are human and you will do what you will. I'm not a bible scholar so you might want to check with others more knowledgable to be sure I am right. The thing is, only God is perfect. Only he can look into the hearts of people and judge them.
The bible says if we admit that we are sinners, imperfect, God will forgive us. It seems the trouble comes when we refuse to admit our sinfulness, when we think we are better than others and we lose our compassion and forgiveness towards others and become judgemental. There is the law, but the law is nothing without love. God said that he will be the judge. We shouldn't be trying to do God's job. Jesus said, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. The bible says to humble ourselves. That's really all that christianity is; God loving you and you loving him back.
You say..... the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)....and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
Sin costs. It cost Jesus everything he had. (Have you seen Mel Gibson's Passion of Christ?) Jesus was a righteous man. He was the only righteous man. He was God's son not Adam's relation. Jesus suffered grieviously at the hands of man and he did nothing to deserve it. Because he was righteous Jesus said he had only to call out to God and God would send legions of angels to avenge him. If at any time he felt that there was something he could not forgive mankind for he could have called for their destruction. Love is sacrifice, love costs. Christians know what it cost Christ. God loves us. Jesus loves us. When you look at that cross you can see how much he loves us. Never underestimate how great that love is or how much it cost. He loves you. The bible says that those who take up their cross and follow Jesus, those who forgive others of their sins for love even to the point of suffering and dying as Jesus did, will find great reward.
Does that give others license to kill them?
auroreII wrote:And at some point...you really should deal with the question that has been asked so many times:
Since the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
I find your question more than a little disturbing but, okay, let's see.
Oh great! Finally! Someone who is actually going to deal with the question of "how is this a negative for the fetus?"
Terrific.
I am so happy.
Quote:The bible says Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins so that we might have salvation/ everlasting life. John 3:16 Does that mean he died so that women could kill their unborn children? I think Yes and No.
Yes, he died because people being human will do what they will do. Moses was a murderer, King David was a murderer. The bible says God has compassion (pity) on us because we are human and not perfect. Because we are unable to perfectly keep the law he allows us to be imperfect, human. We are not under the law, but under grace. (If we could keep the law perfectly we wouldn't need a savior.) The bible also says that even though we are under grace that does not give us license to sin. Jesus repeatedly told people to obey the commandments. The commandment says, Thou shalt not kill. We do not have license to kill.
If you don't believe that what you do is a sin or that you are doing anything wrong, there seem to be allowances for that in the bible- lack of understanding, having a good conscience toward God-are you following your conscience, etc.. If you try to follow the law but you make mistakes, the bible says that God has compassion to forgive, that is why Jesus died on the cross. Even if you go out and do things just because you can God understands you are human and you will do what you will. I'm not a bible scholar so you might want to check with others more knowledgable to be sure I am right. The thing is, only God is perfect. Only he can look into the hearts of people and judge them.
The bible says if we admit that we are sinners, imperfect, God will forgive us. It seems the trouble comes when we refuse to admit our sinfulness, when we think we are better than others and we lose our compassion and forgiveness towards others and become judgemental. There is the law, but the law is nothing without love. God said that he will be the judge. We shouldn't be trying to do God's job. Jesus said, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. The bible says to humble ourselves. That's really all that christianity is; God loving you and you loving him back.
You say..... the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)....and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
Sin costs. It cost Jesus everything he had. (Have you seen Mel Gibson's Passion of Christ?) Jesus was a righteous man. He was the only righteous man. He was God's son not Adam's relation. Jesus suffered grieviously at the hands of man and he did nothing to deserve it. Because he was righteous Jesus said he had only to call out to God and God would send legions of angels to avenge him. If at any time he felt that there was something he could not forgive mankind for he could have called for their destruction. Love is sacrifice, love costs. Christians know what it cost Christ. God loves us. Jesus loves us. When you look at that cross you can see how much he loves us. Never underestimate how great that love is or how much it cost. He loves you. The bible says that those who take up their cross and follow Jesus, those who forgive others of their sins for love even to the point of suffering and dying as Jesus did, will find great reward.
Does that give others license to kill them?
Uhhh...uhhhh....uhhhh...
...uhhhh..
...I thought you were going to deal with the question????
Are you going to do that in a follow up post?
Since the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
Are you really worried about the fetus or are you trying to justify abortion which some believe to be killing? Yes it's nice to be able to take comfort in the fact that we have a compassionate God who cares for the born and the unborn. You wonder how the above could be negative. You're assuming that if it is not negative then it must be positive? Wouldn't it be much more "positive" for that unborn child to let it come to term?
auroreII wrote:Quote:Since the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
Are you really worried about the fetus or are you trying to justify abortion which some believe to be killing?
I am asking a question...and you said you were going to answer it.
You didn't.
Why don't you deal with the question?
Quote:Yes it's nice to be able to take comfort in the fact that we have a compassionate God who cares for the born and the unborn.
I have no idea if we do or don't have a God...much less one who cares for the born and the unborn.
This was a hypothetical.
Go back and read it.
Quote: You wonder how the above could be negative.
Yes, I am.
Quote:You're assuming that if it is not negative then it must be positive?
No I am not.
Quote: Wouldn't it be much more "positive" for that unborn child to let it come to term?
Well...if the child comes "to term"...and ends up being a sadistic serial killer...with hundreds of victims...and with the sadistic serial killer ending up in hell being tortured for all of eternity...
...the answer to your question is NO.
Unless you think that would be more positive.
In any case...you declared you were going to answer the question...and you haven't so far.
Here's the question again:
Since the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
Justify abortion?
Why should anyone justify any medical procedure?
If you and your doc agree on a medical treatment/medical procedure - there's nothing to justify.
Silliness abounds.
If they would have ended up in heaven for all of eternity...
...would the following people have been better off if they had been aborted?
Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Joseph Stalin....
...I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
Justify abortion?
Why should anyone justify any medical procedure?
If you and your doc agree on a medical treatment/medical procedure - there's nothing to justify.
Silliness abounds.
My reply-
Frank wasn't talking about a medical procedure his question concerned religious beliefs about abortion. If you believe abortion is just a medical procedure then that's what you believe.
If they would have ended up in heaven for all of eternity...
...would the following people have been better off if they had been aborted?
Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Joseph Stalin....
...I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
So should we just abort everyone because it would be better for them to die and go to heaven rather risk that they might grow up to be a serial killer?
ehBeth wrote:Justify abortion?
Why should anyone justify any medical procedure?
If you and your doc agree on a medical treatment/medical procedure - there's nothing to justify.
Silliness abounds.
This is not a just a medical procedure. Getting your appendix out, removing a cyst etc. is a medical procedure. Killing a fetus and calling it a medical procedure does not take away the ending of a life.
Frank Apisa wrote:Here's the question again:
Since the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
You are assuming the "free pass". You talk as if you know exactly the process. Astounding since you don't believe in it in the first place.
Frank Apisa wrote:If they would have ended up in heaven for all of eternity...
...would the following people have been better off if they had been aborted?
Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Joseph Stalin....
...I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
You are really living in a make believe fairy land Frank.....
I believe Frank's questions are asked in earnest.
I know a lot of people who truly believe that abortion is not taking a human life or that it is just a medical procedure. Frank and I agreed to disagree on that. A person has to follow their own conscience and beliefs.
Intrepid wrote:This is not a just a medical procedure.
That is your opinion.
Mine is that an abortion is a medical procedure, and that any decisions related to it belong only to the woman and her doctor.
I'm a Christian. You're a Christian. We have differing opinions.
None of us knows what "the rules" of the universe are. Are Christians of any sort God's flavour? We don't know. In the meantime all of us have to proceed with what we believe is right. I'm not going to interfere with your right to not have an abortion - and I hope all Christians respect the rights of others to do what they believe is right.
I don't.
People are marrying children in Utah--raping their children, because they brought them into this world--and can take them out, if they please....
I don't usually argue morality in the context of this thread--but I am comfortable in saying I don't trust people to do what they believe is right. I don't trust what they deem right to always even be decent or humane.
That's deep, Lash. I think that people often have no idea of even what's good for them.
Lash wrote:I don't.
People are marrying children in Utah--raping their children, because they brought them into this world--and can take them out, if they please....
I don't usually argue morality in the context of this thread--but I am comfortable in saying I don't trust people to do what they believe is right. I don't trust what they deem right to always even be decent or humane.
This is where it starts to get confusing, we have, consistently heard from Foxfyre that majority rules (no definiton of universe of majority, is it neighborhood, community, township, city, state or nation?) there are many locales in southern utah/northern arizona where Mormons are a definite majority which means, in effect, that the justice/courts, police, city government, school board are Mormon and these same demographics support mulitple marriages including 13 year olds to brother members of the "church." Now I realize that when Foxfyre speaks of "majority rules" she is contenting that "christians" (also undefined) are the majority and therefore, right. I have consistently offered the opinion that "majority rules" is more ofthen than not, mob rule. The secondary issue is, of course, "morality" in subservience to "law." "morality" in general being assumed to be some sort of "christian ethic" whereas "law" is man created for the purpose of social coehesion/stabilty. The very nature of abortion comes under the general concept of "morality" vs law as we have seen in the many pages of posts above. Albeit, abortion is a sticky wicket with no clear solution in either "morality" or "law" for guidence, however, I do see it as clearly an issue of "law" advocating in favor of the mother over the fetus in it's current offering roe v wade. As I read it, the constituion is pretty specific in over-ruling "mob rule" in favor of "law." Ergo, I do not trust what "they" deem to be right any more than Lash does. (different reasons of course)
auroreII wrote:If they would have ended up in heaven for all of eternity...
...would the following people have been better off if they had been aborted?
Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Joseph Stalin....
...I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
So should we just abort everyone because it would be better for them to die and go to heaven rather risk that they might grow up to be a serial killer?
No. And nowhere did I say that or hint at it.
You asked a question:
Quote:Wouldn't it be much more "positive" for that unborn child to let it come to term?
I answered it with:
Quote:If they would have ended up in heaven for all of eternity...
...would the following people have been better off if they had been aborted?
Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Joseph Stalin....
...I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
That was an adequate answer...and there is no reason for you to try to build a strawman out of it.
Intrepid wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:Here's the question again:
Since the end result of an abortion, according to your religion, is a bit of pain (much, much less than would be felt if a life were lived out completely)...and a free pass to eternity in heaven with your god...
...how is this a negative for the fetus?
You are assuming the "free pass". You talk as if you know exactly the process. Astounding since you don't believe in it in the first place.
No I am not assuming the "free pass."
I said, "...according you your religion..."
And according to what I've read (with the excption of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas)...you Christians mostly think innocent souls go off to heaven to spend eternity with your god. (I imagine I'm gonna get a lot of bulltruds on this. Bring it on!)
And what on earth does it matter whether I "believe" it or not? I am talking a hypothetical based on your religion.
Intrepid wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:If they would have ended up in heaven for all of eternity...
...would the following people have been better off if they had been aborted?
Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Joseph Stalin....
...I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
You are really living in a make believe fairy land Frank.....
Not at all.
Fact is, though...you are.
