ABORTION.......

Nobody, and I don't know/see how the quote of mine you posted is relevant. If you are trying to say that pointing out that someone spoke in a condescending way (a "holier than thou" attitude if you will) is somehow me being a "moral compass" or trying to be, then I am flabbergasted as to HOW you could come to that conclusion. They are two completely different scenarios.

maporche,

What I am saying is this: You seem to find no problem with the comments made about the Christians by the non-Christians. But, when it is pointed out to one of the non-Christians that a comment was inappropriate, you seem to try to justify it.

NONE OF US HAVE THE RIGHT TO ABUSE EACH OTHER! NONE OF US! Not me, not Frank, not Intrepid, not you!

Each of us are guilty of pointing out perceived faults of the others. EACH OF US! IT'S ALL IN THE WAY THAT IT IS POINTED OUT THAT IS IMPORTANT!

And you can all say that "he is just Frank" all you want. It does not make his behavior any more appropriate.

If I engaged in that kind of language with him, I would certainly expect someone to call me on it! I AM WILLING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY OWN ACTIONS!

And yes, I am pretty ticked off. You kick a dog long enough and sooner or later he is going to bite.

I can turn the other cheek very well, but just how many cheeks do you think I have?

Hmmm......I'll guess 4.


Um...wait, was that a rhetorical question?

(Just trying to make you laugh Momma. It's what us clowns do best)

Give that clown a cigar! Momma does have four cheeks! Thanx CoastalRat, I needed that!

I just noticed! Where in South Carolina? I just visited in Greenville and Simpsonville last week! I love SC!

MA on one topic that you were on I made some disparaging remarks about Plato/Aristotle to which you took offense and accused me of attacking you personally. Weird ain't it?

dys,

You will also remember I was not the only one that took those remarks to be aimed at me. However, you and I did come to an agreement, didn't we? I believe you said you didn't mean it personally and I apologized for taking it that way?

If not, then let me do that now. I did take the remarks personally and someone else felt they were meant that way too. But, if you honestly did not mean them as such, then I do apologize for taking it personally.

But, you have to admit dys, Frank HAS called me and others names personally and it's not okay. Look, someone else on this thread apologized very sincerely for belittling the Christian faith and said they would be careful not to do that again. In my opinion, that was a gesture of grand proportions. I know it's not easy to say you're sorry sometimes. But, when it's done, things are always better than before.

maporche,

I have been mulling over some of the things you said about not being a moral compass. It raises a few questions for me. Can I ask you how would you respond in some of these situations?

1. You encounter a man beating a woman or a child on the street.
2. You have proof someone is committing incest with their child.
3. You encounter a woman being raped.

Now, these are all three situations in which I believe we all agree are just plain wrong. And I understand that these are rather extreme situations. My point is this. If we would stand up for what is right at the very beginning, wouldn't it follow that perhaps things like the above might not happen as often? If you let someone get away with something wrong it's like condoning that behavior. Then if that behavior is condoned, it's easier to condone even more inappropriate behavior?

I mean this sincerely in asking you these questions. I am very interested in your answer.

1. You encounter a man beating a woman or a child on the street.
spare the rod, spoil the child
2. You have proof someone is committing incest with their child.
society has no jurisdiction over how a parent may raise his/her child (we can go into this more if you like)
3. You encounter a woman being raped.
Marital rape or rape of god's army against the Philestines? or, maybe you mean rape by a non-believer against the true-believer.

Ok, I think I am over my shock.

Dys,

Are you being serious here or not? I do not want to make an assumption.

Just a few thoughts I'd like to share:



I want to thank the several people who posted , if not to agree with me, at least to acknowledge some of the points I was trying to make.




The problem here, folks, is that my "colorful language" and supposed "abusive behavior"...is, to a very, very large degree, merely a red herring.

MA, Life, and Intrepid...do not like what I have to say...and that is the main reason for what is going on.

In particular...

...I think that the god described in the Bible is a jealous, vindictive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, psychotic, murderous, retributive, petty barbarian. I have nothing but the greatest of respect for the people who invented the god...they were in need of such a god to protect themselves from the jealous, vindictive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, psychotic, murderous, retributive, petty, barbaric gods of their enemies.

I also have respect for modern day Jews who honor this god...mostly by honoring a long. arduous ethnic tradition.

I do not honor or respect modern day Christians in this forum...and quite honestly, I consider them to be hypocrites, rationalizers, revisionists, and deluded fools in almost terminal denial. (I do not necessarily extend these thoughts to Christians who are not in this forum...or in other fora like this one.)

I consider religion in general...and Christianity in particular...to be a menace to society, humanity, and the planet...a festering cancer that must be dealt with in order for humanity to become well.

It is my opinion that religion is a very large net negative for society...and I think any reasonable, intelligent, caring, concerned individual should be doing everything he/she can to rid our planet of this blight.

How, I ask in all ernestness...can I possibly share of these opinions in a way that they (those folks metioned up above) will accept as "courteous" or "congnizent of their feelings?"

I've asked this question many, many times...and I am sure I've asked it in recent threads where the above mentioned people are posting.

To the best of my knowledge (I acknowlege that I've been mistaken about stuff like this before) I have never gotten a reasonable reply.


In any case...it is my opinion that these opinions about the god of the Bible and the Christians in this forum...and the back up for them (passages from the Bible)...really are the reason these people are all exercised...not the language or the supposed abuse.

Getting back to the topic of abortion, I have been trying to locate in the Bible verses that will support the Christian viewpoint of a child being a child at the point of conception.

Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He knits us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God's active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty of someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as the penalty for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb as just as much of a human being as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman's right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

Frank Apisa,
Your delivery is a red herring? Nah, its just that your head is so far up your arse that you think you can say anything in any manner and denigrate those who refuse to sift through it to find charm and forethought there. We teach children that it's not always what you say but how you say it, but somehow you can't seem to get that through your goofy skull. I don't know what it is - you've always gotten away with it, you were raised by werewolves, you're just stupid - who knows? But no one in this forum or in life in general should be expected to hear whatever wisdom you or anyone else thinks they're sharing, if it comes wrapped in the insults you think are so damn cute. The reasonable, natural response is to ask you who the hell you think you are, to call you on your insulting crap, and then keep expecting people to approach them respectfully. It's really funny, too. I can muster that up for EVERYONE AT A2K except you, Apisa - but you probably see that as a defect of mine.

I have beautiful children. I have one disabled child who has been a burden at times, exhausting to deal with and who has been the subject (outside the home) of more mean spirited treatment than kind. He will not have an easy life ever probably. Having said that, if I could go back in time I would NOT abort him.

On the other hand I've been on the daddy end of two abortions that I know of and I felt badly and guilty at the time, but that faded.

Both out youngest were preemies, 26 and 30 weeks. They are health as horses and in fact out youngest, 14 years old is six foot two 200+ lbs. If squinney, who has been told she will never carry to term, became pregnant again, we wold probably abort rather than roll the dice again.

Can we mostly agree it's a complicated issue and a creator of strong feelings and inner turmoil?

Definitely not a defect. Truth is truth. But you know Momma, the head up the butt thing?

Blueveinedthrobber Wrote:



I applaud you for being a parent. I have the utmost respect for anyone who brings a child into this world and teaches them right from wrong. In the case of Squinney not being able to carry to term, I totally understand your feelings.

And abortion is probably one of the most complicated issues there is. Hearing of a personal experience really does help to put things in perspective and I appreciate you're doing it.

Fourteen and six foot and 200 lbs! Wow! My middle brother was also a preemie. He is 6"1 and 185. They might start small but wow!

So far you have demonstrted immense ability to leap to assumptions however I am quite serious.

Seems to me you are in no position to be judging others on offensive posts, Snood.

Fact is...the language and the supposed abuse...IS A RED HERRING.

But Christians are always looking for reasons to avoid dealing with the issues raised...and I guess this is as good a one as any.

Dyslexia Wrote:



I apologize for any assumptions I have made. I will do my best not to do that again.

I am very curious as to your response to my question.

I don't mean a parent was spanking a child, I mean a beating. There is a big difference.

Society has no jurisdiction over how a parent may raise his/her child? If you had proof someone was molesting their child you would do nothing?

I mean a man raping a woman. You would do nothing?

You didn't ask me, but I will put my two cents in. In all three cases, I would not come to the person's assistance directly, but I would call the police, and make sure that they came to the scene.

The reason I would not intervene directly is because I am not willing to sacrifice my safety for some random stranger. I could be at risk if I intervened, and the perp had a knife, a gun, or could overpower me.

If the person being hurt were someone that I loved, I then would be willing to take a greater risk.

first of off MA since you don't already know, I spend a lifetime career as a member/supervisior of a child protection unit. I have personally dealt with every imaginable horror that can happen to a child. I have dealt with every excuse imaginable from "I was drunk at the time and didn't know what I was doing" to "it's none of your damn business what I do with my own family, this is between me and my god" I have investigated sexual abuse/incest cases, death by beating with a belt for a 6 month old and death by starvation for a nine year old locked in a closet (the list goes on into infinity) I have also (as a child welfare policy analyst for the state lobbied against "christian" groups who wanted/demanded that the "state" not be allowed to interfere with a "god given right" to decide "family matters" So you say "spanking" and I say "beating to death" all boils down to the same thing-child abuse. I am now retired but I can never forget the many years of self-rightous excuses I heard endlessly from "christians" "yes he/she died but that was an accident, I only meant to provide christian morality re his/her potty training" etc etc etc. I am more than willing to carry on this conversation with you re my experiences but I warn you there may be some "unpleasant" words from my keyboard.