ABORTION.......

Thank you Frank for your opinions, and Intrepid for your links. Lots to mull over when I get a pause from the working week...

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What does the unborn feel as he is chopped and dismembered in a D&C abortion, or chemically burned to death in a saline abortion or has his skull pierced prior to vacuuming his brains out in a partial birth abortion?

Good footnotes included in this summary

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/FetalPain091604.pdf

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How can anyone possibly think abortion is ok if the child feels that pain? I think abortion is probably the most barbaric thing I have ever heard of. As much as this article made me cry, it made me just as angry anyone could do this to a child!

Thank You, Real Life, for providing it.

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Even the coldest heart must be touched by this article.

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Momma Angel wrote:

How can anyone possibly think abortion is ok if the child feels that pain? I think abortion is probably the most barbaric thing I have ever heard of.

Oh my....no, no, no.

Here's something to consider:

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

That is much, much, much more barbaric. (And I needn't point out that it is the god you supposedly love so much that is offering this command!)

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As much as this article made me cry, it made me just as angry anyone could do this to a child!

No problem then. It wasn't being done to a child.

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Thank You, Real Life, for providing it.

Yeah...Life....thank you!

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Frank Apisa,
You've already admitted that part of your reason for sticking to the hardline extreme in this argument was because the other side would take any relenting as an opening, and you didn't want to give them that leeway.

So, since part of your motive for allowing absolutely no compromise on the question of whether the soon-to-be-born is a "child" or not, is purely tactical, can you admit to any moments of second thought when it's pointed out to you that the very very late term fetus has consciousness of pain? Do you have any thoughts about that at all?

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Intrepid Wrote:

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Even the coldest heart must be touched by this article.

Well, I hate to say this, but it seems not to be the case.

Frank Apisa Wrote:

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No problem then. It wasn't being done to a child.

Hey, whatever justifies it for you. Wouldn't want you to have an attack of conscience or anything.

Snood Wrote:

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Frank Apisa,
You've already admitted that part of your reason for sticking to the hardline extreme in this argument was because the other side would take any relenting as an opening, and you didn't want to give them that leeway.

So, since part of your motive for allowing absolutely no compromise on the question of whether the soon-to-be-born is a "child" or not, is purely tactical, can you admit to any moments of second thought when it's pointed out to you that the very very late term fetus has consciousness of pain? Do you have any thoughts about that at all?

And Frank, I would love to hear your answer.

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snood wrote:

Frank Apisa,
You've already admitted that part of your reason for sticking to the hardline extreme in this argument was because the other side would take any relenting as an opening, and you didn't want to give them that leeway.

Well..I would prefer to characterize it as "acknowledged" rather than "admitted"...but the essentials of what you said here are correct, Snood.

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So, since part of your motive for allowing absolutely no compromise on the question of whether the soon-to-be-born is a "child" or not, is purely tactical, can you admit to any moments of second thought when it's pointed out to you that the very very late term fetus has consciousness of pain?

Do you have any thoughts about that at all?

I will take exception to the word "admit"...but substituting "acknowledge"...why I have no problem acknowledging that I have second thoughts about damn near everything involved in the abortion question. Sometimes third thoughts...or more.

It is one of the most vexing complications of human existence that I can imagine. I detest the fact that I was responsible in part for two pregnancies that ended in abortion. I can assure you that it was not something that happened and dismissed as though I were throwing out spoiled milk.

But I always come down on the side of allowing a woman to have the final say on whether or not she is to continue a pregnancy.

No matter what!

For whatever reasons she deems appropriate.

I am of the opinion (and I recognize that well-meaning, intelligent people can disagree with me on this)...that nothing abrogates her right to terminate a pregnancy occurring within her body.

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Another comment on the Life link...and the "pain" argument.

We all...we humans...feel pain...and lots of it during our lives.

So even if the Christian prespective on all this is accurate in all its details...

...we end up with a "living human being"....feeling pain during the abortion procedure...

...and a death...

...and a completely innocent soul being dealt with by the Christian god.

And in that case...we really have just two possibilities:

One...the god adds to the indignity suffered by the soul by refusing it entry into heaven because it still is contaminated by Original Sin (an eventuality which was argued by several of the early Christian fathers)...or....

...two...the soul is welcomed into Christian heaven on a free pass...and begins enjoyment of salvation for all of eternity immediately...

...having suffered great pain during the abortion...but probably much, much, much, much less than it would have endured had it lived its life.

So where is the great loss for this "living human being?

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It's nice to hear you at least have had some feelings about this. But, what I don't understand is, if you had second or third thoughts about helping someone during an abortion, why would you do it more than once?

I don't understand why you would place the "rights" of an adult woman over those of a child (fetus, etc.). I would think if you had second or third thoughts then that would mean you were not sure it was the right thing to do.

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MA quoted Snood's question...and then wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

[And Frank, I would love to hear your answer.

No problem, MA. Glad to accomodate you.

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Isn't that like the unbelievable comment by a member on another forum posting that those being killed in Iraq would probably die from car crashes and other tragedies anyhow so are people complaining about them dying in a war? Both cases are incredible.

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Momma Angel wrote:

It's nice to hear you at least have had some feelings about this. But, what I don't understand is, if you had second or third thoughts about helping someone during an abortion, why would you do it more than once?

I don't understand why you would place the "rights" of an adult woman over those of a child (fetus, etc.). I would think if you had second or third thoughts then that would mean you were not sure it was the right thing to do.

After thinking things over very, very carefully...

...I have decided that the proper resolution of this issue is to let the woman decide if she wants to continue the pregnancy...or to terminate it.

How can I make that any clearer????

It does not matter whether I consider it to be "the right thing to do"...or "the wrong thing to do."

I am of the opinion that only the woman has the right to make that decision.

PERIOD!

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Intrepid wrote:

Isn't that like the unbelievable comment by a member on another forum posting that those being killed in Iraq would probably die from car crashes and other tragedies anyhow so are people complaining about them dying in a war? Both cases are incredible.

Don't know what in hell you are talking about here, Intrepid...and I suspect neither do you.

It is my opinion that a woman has a right to decide if she wants to continue a pregnancy occurring in her own body...or if she wants to terminate it.

If you see that as having something to do with Iraq and car crashes...what can I tell ya???

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Frank,

All you are doing is finding ways to justify abortion. First, it's oh, it's just a fetus, not a child anyway.

Then it's, well if it goes to heaven what's the harm?

And just where is man's responsibility in all of this? Blaming God is not the answer.

And, since you don't even know if there is a God, just who the heck are you blaming?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

All you are doing is finding ways to justify abortion.

No I'm not. I am merely stating my opinion. In case you missed it....

..I think a woman has a right to continue or terminate a pregnancy occurring in her body for whatever reasons she deems fit.

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First, it's oh, it's just a fetus, not a child anyway.

Well...it is not a child.

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Then it's, well if it goes to heaven what's the harm?

An observation.

I note that you have not answered the question I posed in that regrd.

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And just where is man's responsibility in all of this?

Not sure what you mean???

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Blaming God is not the answer.

Who the hell is "blaming" God...and what in hell are they blaming God for?

What are you talking about here???/

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And, since you don't even know if there is a God, just who the heck are you blaming?

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Are you just babbling?

Blame who for what?

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Everyone,

I will no longer post anything in response to Frank's posts. In another thread we were engaged in he called me a dumb f**khead, and I will not tolerate that.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Everyone,

I will no longer post anything in response to Frank's posts. In another thread we were engaged in he called me a dumb f**khead, and I will not tolerate that.

MA, you've said probably three times now that you will not respond to Frank, yet you continue to do so.

Just an observation.

Oh, and what thread was that, sounds interesting?

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maporche,

Yes, I have said that a few times now. Then Frank will seemingly be a little more considerate and I start again. I believe in giving people chances. However, he has gone too far.

And, if you think that thread would be interesting because he called me that, then I probably wouldn't want to answer your posts either.

I may be a Christian, but I do have standards and values and I do have a mind. I decide if I like the way I am being treated or not, just as everyone else does. Being a Christian does not make me weak and unable or unwilling to stand up for myself, quite the contrary. I just feel it is right to do everything you can to come to some sort of a compromise and if you can't, then you must remove either yourself or that part of the situation.

I do not deserve to be treated in such a disrespectful manner and neither does anyone else and, if you think it is perfectly ok for him or anyone else to do that, then I feel just as sorry for you as I do for Frank.

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maporsche wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Everyone,

I will no longer post anything in response to Frank's posts. In another thread we were engaged in he called me a dumb f**khead, and I will not tolerate that.

MA, you've said probably three times now that you will not respond to Frank, yet you continue to do so.

Just an observation.

Oh, and what thread was that, sounds interesting?

I did not call her a "dumb f**khead."

I used that expession to illustrate a point about being rude...and logical at the same time.

She really has problems understanding English.

Here's a link.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56936&start=380

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ABORTION.......

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