ABORTION.......

Frank Apisa wrote:

I said a fetus has no rights??????

Can you tell me where?

I did say that it is my opinion that the fetus has no rights that cause its host to lose certain of her rights. I also said that it is my opinion that a fetus is not a living human being. But I do not remember saying that a fetus has no rights.

Fair enough.

Frank Apisa wrote:

djbt wrote:

Every time I ask you why you believe what you do...

You are never going to get anywhere asking me about "beliefs." I have none.

If you want opinions, I will give them. If you want guesses...I may give them. But don't suppose I have "beliefs", because I don't.

Sorry to use unclear language. By 'beliefs' I meant opinions.

Frank Apisa wrote:

djbt wrote:

(1) What attributes must a thing possess for it to be wrong to kill it?

If it is alive...a case can be made that it is "wrong" to kill it.

I try not to kill things. I shoo mosquitos...and capture spiders in the house to release them outside.

I try never to kill vegetable matter unnecessarily (mushrooms on a golf course, comes to mind.)

I agree.

Frank Apisa wrote:

djbt wrote:

(2) Why does having these attributes make it wrong to kill it?

If it is alive...it should be allowed to continue to stay alive. That is strictly an opinion. Nothing more complicated than that.

Obviously, this is not something set in stone. Sometimes bees will not cooperate...and a decent family barbecue requires more than reasoning with them. They die. Sometimes a mushroom is in the way of a shot...and gets clipped. Sometimes a mosquito takes me by surprise and gets squashed rather than shooed.

Well, I'd say that a bee's interest in staying alive outweighs your interest in having a barbecue nearby to it, but that's another discussion. Generally we agree.

Frank Apisa wrote:

djbt wrote:

(3) Does a new-born baby possess these attributes?

Yep.

djbt wrote:

(4) Does a fetus, at any time, possess these attributes?

Yep...

I tried to answer your questions to the best of my abilities.

Make your point. We can discuss it. I am interested in where you are going with this.

Now I feel like I should have some cunning trap to spring... sorry to disappoint, but I'm trying to understand your position, rather than make a point.

Anyway, we seem to agree that a case can be made that it is wrong to kill a fetus, that it should be allowed to stay alive.

You say, it would seem, that it would be more wrong to partially and temporarily deny someone their right to freedom to act as they please than it would be wrong to kill someone. Is that a fair assessment of your position?

Since the 1970s in the United States, a debate has alternately raged or simmered over the "personhood" of the fetus before birth. Arguments regarding the personhood of a fetus are particularly relevant to debates over the legal and moral status of abortions

Now here, Intrepid, we are in complete agreement...although we are on opposite sides of the resolution of the question.

Quote:
Now, if you are such a strong (can't use believer here because we know better)... So, if you think your argument has so much merit, answer the question! If your wife was having a child and right before it was to be born and you and she decided (or she decided) she did not want that growth (your word, not mine), would you them terminate the pregnancy?

It is not a question...it is a rather poorly thought out and poorly contructed hypothetical. I prefer not to deal with hypotheticals...particularly something as ill-conceived as this one.

BUT....so that I don't have to listen to your hysterical bullshyt about me dodging anything you write...

...I will respond.

If she wanted to terminate the pregnancy at that moment...I would support her decision completely and without reservation.

Frank,

You would support your wife's decision to kill your child? Well, now that really gives me some insight. So what about your friends Frank? You would care so little about your child (or what would in just a few seconds be your child) that you would agree to have it killed? Boy, I can see how you can state you are such a kind, decent, moral, and loyal human being. I would trust you with my life, Frank. Oh yeah, about as much as I trust you have any compassion at all.

You really gotta get control over this hysteria, MA. You're gonna pop your cork.

I would not support anyone's decision to kill a child. But a fetus is not a child. Get that through your head.

If the fetus is still in the body of the woman bearing it....IT IS A FETUS. And if the woman wants to abort it....she has my support.

HINT: I have said at last a half-dozen times that I feel a woman has complete control over her body....and that if she is pregnant...it is my opinion that she should be able to terminate that pregnancy at any time.

No harder than it is for you folks to consider eliminating a zygote to be murder.

Frank: When does it become "not okay" to kill the baby?

When it becomes a baby.

That happens when it is born into this world.

Prior to that...it is either an zygote, an embryo, or a fetus.

And at any time that it is any of those things...that means the woman bearing the zygote, embryo, or fetus is pregnant...and I think a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy any times she wants.

When the fetus is completely delivered into this world...it becomes a baby. Prior to that...it is a fetus and the woman is considered pregnant...and if a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy...it is my opinion she should have the right to do so.

Intrepid wrote:
Quote:

Quote:

Since the 1970s in the United States, a debate has alternately raged or simmered over the "personhood" of the fetus before birth. Arguments regarding the personhood of a fetus are particularly relevant to debates over the legal and moral status of abortions

Frank Apisa replied:

Quote:

Now here, Intrepid, we are in complete agreement...although we are on opposite sides of the resolution of the question.

Momma Angel wrote:

Quote:

Quote:
Now, if you are such a strong (can't use believer here because we know better)... So, if you think your argument has so much merit, answer the question! If your wife was having a child and right before it was to be born and you and she decided (or she decided) she did not want that growth (your word, not mine), would you them terminate the pregnancy?

Frank Apisa responded:

Quote:

It is not a question...it is a rather poorly thought out and poorly contructed hypothetical. I prefer not to deal with hypotheticals...particularly something as ill-conceived as this one.

BUT....so that I don't have to listen to your hysterical bullshyt about me dodging anything you write...

...I will respond.

If she wanted to terminate the pregnancy at that moment...I would support her decision completely and without reservation.

Momma Angel wrote:

Quote:

Frank,

You would support your wife's decision to kill your child? Well, now that really gives me some insight. So what about your friends Frank? You would care so little about your child (or what would in just a few seconds be your child) that you would agree to have it killed? Boy, I can see how you can state you are such a kind, decent, moral, and loyal human being. I would trust you with my life, Frank. Oh yeah, about as much as I trust you have any compassion at all.

Frank Apisa replied

Quote:

You really gotta get control over this hysteria, MA. You're gonna pop your cork.

I would not support anyone's decision to kill a child. But a fetus is not a child. Get that through your head.

If the fetus is still in the body of the woman bearing it....IT IS A FETUS. And if the woman wants to abort it....she has my support.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

HINT: I have said at last a half-dozen times that I feel a woman has complete control over her body....and that if she is pregnant...it is my opinion that she should be able to terminate that pregnancy at any time.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

No harder than it is for you folks to consider eliminating a zygote to be murder.

Ticomaya wrote:

Quote:

Frank: When does it become "not okay" to kill the baby?

Frank responded:

Quote:

When it becomes a baby.

That happens when it is born into this world.

Prior to that...it is either an zygote, an embryo, or a fetus.

And at any time that it is any of those things...that means the woman bearing the zygote, embryo, or fetus is pregnant...and I think a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy any times she wants.

Quote:

When the fetus is completely delivered into this world...it becomes a baby. Prior to that...it is a fetus and the woman is considered pregnant...and if a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy...it is my opinion she should have the right to do so.

There are none so blind....

Oh, I neglected to mention that. Just a catch up for djbt

Intrepid wrote:

djbt. Meet Frank.

Thanks for the introduction. Seems like I missed a lot of fun over the past few pages... Anyone else feel much of this would be better placed in a reality TV show rather than a discussion forum...

In most threads I've read, I've been in agreement with Frank, so have found his approach unproductive and annoying. But now, when I'm not sure which side I fall onto, I've realised its use in promoting debate. Unfortunately, a side-effect is that it tends to lower the level of debate into mere statement of opinion, shouting and name-calling. Fortunate that here we have good people like Terry who are willing to offer facts, research and calm debate to offset this...

By the way, still no-one has challenged the articles Terry posted.

djbt wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

djbt. Meet Frank.

Thanks for the introduction. Seems like I missed a lot of fun over the past few pages... Anyone else feel much of this would be better placed in a reality TV show rather than a discussion forum...

In most threads I've read, I've been in agreement with Frank, so have found his approach unproductive and annoying. But now, when I'm not sure which side I fall onto, I've realised its use in promoting debate. Unfortunately, a side-effect is that it tends to lower the level of debate into mere statement of opinion, shouting and name-calling. Fortunate that here we have good people like Terry who are willing to offer facts, research and calm debate to offset this...

By the way, still no-one has challenged the articles Terry posted.

Professor Arnold Gesell of Yale University in The Embryology of Behavior: The Beginnings of the Human Mind wrote, ".......by the close of the first trimester the fetus is a sentient, moving being."

We own more than one house. Our biggest home is usually occupied by someone that has no home, no job, nothing. We do what we can to help them get back on their feet while providing them with a place to live.

Phoenix,

Do I attempt to convert anyone I help? Or is your question I help people so I can convert them?

Actually I would be interested in both answers.

You cannot force someone to believe. A person's faith and beliefs have to come from the heart.