ABORTION.......

Frank,

Oh, I see. You can call me (and others) illogical, silly, nonsensical, moronic, etc., but if someone says something like that to you, you lash back with that trash? Now, how does that make you so considerate of others?

I am sure that Snood and I are not the only ones that find that comment "Until it is born, it is not a living being," at the very least a puzzlement and I don't even think a scientist would agree with that one. So stupid? Well, I gotta tell you, Frank, it's not the most intelligent statement I have ever read.

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Momma Angel,

It seems that Frank is using the free will that God so graciously gave to him.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

snood wrote:
"Until it is born, it is not a living being."

So, to the list of delusional, close-minded and ill-mannered, I can add just plain old stupid.

F**k off, boy.

That is totally uncalled for and, IMO racist. You have gone over the line here Frank.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Ok, fine. I have no guts because I won't get nasty with you. Works for me.

I don't have the knack for being logical? Ok. Works for you.

Okay...two areas where we agree.

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And no, I did not say murder. I said killing, remember? Murder is the illegal act, as you have stated.

Do you really want me to link you to every place where you have referred to it as "murder?"

Are you actually going to pretend that you have not called it "murder?"

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A reasonable inference of moral philosophical superiority could probably be garnered from a statement like, "I am going to heaven and you are going to hell."

A reasonable inference of moral philosophical superiority could be garnered from many, many, many of the things you say, MA.

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And I am not sneaky about my insults. I have told you before that I thought you were a very rude and arrogant man. What's so sneaky about that?

Nothing. But that does not mean you are not sneaky about many of your insults. AND YOU ARE SNEAKY ABOUT MANY OF YOUR INSULTS.

(Next time I note one...I'll call it to your attention.)

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I don't call your views names because I have no right to do so.

If you think my views are wrong...you tell me you think they are wrong. If I think your views are wrong...I tell you that I think they are wrong.

We use different kinds of language.

You think you are morally superior to me because you use the language you use. I think you are full of shyt on that point.

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You have the same rights as I do and just because you trample on mine does not mean I can trample on yours.

I do not "trample" on your rights.

Where do you get this crap from?

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I pretend that I am considerate and I pretend that I am respectful? I can tell you one thing Frank. You don't know me at all. I pretend nothing. I don't need to pretend. I am real. What you see is what you get.

You are right. I do not know you. It seems to me that you are pretending to be considerate and respectful. I may be wrong. Time will tell.

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I just don't think you have to be rude to people to get your point across, as you obviously think you have to be. Now, that is as nasty as I care to get with you or anyone else.

Well...you obviously underestimate the value of working the way I do. Good! I love when people underestimate my methods.

Quote:

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:
I say: Until it is born...it is not a living being.

You say: From the moment the egg is fertilized...it is a living being.

You are right. You cannot "equate the two as equals."

Your position is absurd compared with mine.

Just what kind of answer is that? I didn't ask you to compare my position to yours. I asked you how can you equate a full term child to being the same as one just conceived.

Re-read what I wrote!

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In other words, is a full term child not out of the womb yet the same thing as a newly conceived "fetus, zygote, etc." as you call it (and child as I call it)? (In your opinion, that is.)

Well...in your opinion...THEY ARE.

You are the one arguing that each is a full living human being.

So why are you asking me this question...instead of asking it of yourself?

And re-read what I said.

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
snood wrote:
"Until it is born, it is not a living being."

So, to the list of delusional, close-minded and ill-mannered, I can add just plain old stupid.

F**k off, boy.

That is totally uncalled for and, IMO racist. You have gone over the line here Frank.

F**k off, Intrepid!

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Intrepid,

Oh, I totally agree! Frank is exercising his free will to the max!

And thank you for saying you thought that remark he made was racist. I feel the same way!

I definitely believe, Frank, that you crossed a line. Calling names is something none of us should do, but, it is more acceptable than using the race issue. That is NOT acceptable, period!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Oh, I see. You can call me (and others) illogical, silly, nonsensical, moronic, etc., but if someone says something like that to you, you lash back with that trash? Now, how does that make you so considerate of others?

You are not making any sense here, MA. If you have a specific...cite it and I will deal with it.

Quote:

I am sure that Snood and I are not the only ones that find that comment "Until it is born, it is not a living being," at the very least a puzzlement and I don't even think a scientist would agree with that one. So stupid?

Not sure what you or Snood find difficult with that statement...but I see it as logical, coherent, and eminently sensible.

I suggest the problem may be with you and Snood...not with the statement.

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Well, I gotta tell you, Frank, it's not the most intelligent statement I have ever read.

Considering the fact that you MUST read your own stuff...I agree with this comment of yours ENTHUSIASTICALLY.

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Frank,

Don't even bother typing that little quip to me. I will just assume you already did.

I did not understand what you meant by my position compared to yours is absurd. I just stated what I thought you meant.

I stopped calling it murder Frank, in deference to you. You said murder was the illegal act of killing. I conceded to that point. I never said I hadn't ever called it murder.

Let me repeat myself AGAIN just for you, ok? I am not morally, philosophically, ethically, etc., superior to anyone. I believe what I believe and I will defend my beliefs to the death. If you want to call that superiority, that's your take on it. What good would beliefs be if I didn't have enough faith and conviction to stand up to and for them?

And please do point out if I am being sneaky about an insult. If I have been, I do apologize. I want to be straightforward with you as I can be.

I tell you I don't agree with your views. I don't label them as you do. There is no need for that. We use different kinds of language? Good justification (not sneaky, just a fact.)

And when I tell you that you are being verbally abusive and I do not appreciate it, you bet you are trampling on my rights. People get sued for that kind of thing everyday, Frank.

Cite it specifically? Well, let's see. Snood called your comment stupid and you resort to a racist remark.

You call comments, our views, our God, of us "Christians" to be moronic, idiotic, nonsensical, etc., and seem to think that is perfectly all right to do so. I think that is pretty clear.

I Wrote:

Quote:

I am sure that Snood and I are not the only ones that find that comment "Until it is born, it is not a living being," at the very least a puzzlement and I don't even think a scientist would agree with that one. So stupid?

Frank Apsia Wrote:

Quote:

Not sure what you or Snood find difficult with that statement...but I see it as logical, coherent, and eminently sensible.

I suggest the problem may be with you and Snood...not with the statement.

I think that's what scares me so much about you, you really do believe it is logical, coherent, and eminently sensible. Scares me to death.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
snood wrote:
"Until it is born, it is not a living being."

So, to the list of delusional, close-minded and ill-mannered, I can add just plain old stupid.

F**k off, boy.

That is totally uncalled for and, IMO racist. You have gone over the line here Frank.

F**k off, Intrepid!

Your logic, insight and profound use of the English language never ceases to amaze me. The intellectual level of these remarks is, indeed, far beyond anything that I could every say myself. But, of course, this is only my opinion.

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
snood wrote:
"Until it is born, it is not a living being."

So, to the list of delusional, close-minded and ill-mannered, I can add just plain old stupid.

F**k off, boy.

That is totally uncalled for and, IMO racist. You have gone over the line here Frank.

F**k off, Intrepid!

Your logic, insight and profound use of the English language never ceases to amaze me.

I do my best to dazzle.

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The intellectual level of these remarks is, indeed, far beyond anything that I could every say myself.

Yeah...I can understand your feeling that way. But don't be too hard on yourself. Some of your posts are not terrible.

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But, of course, this is only my opinion.

Hey...I want you to know that I appreciate your sharing of it.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
snood wrote:
"Until it is born, it is not a living being."

So, to the list of delusional, close-minded and ill-mannered, I can add just plain old stupid.

F**k off, boy.

That is totally uncalled for and, IMO racist. You have gone over the line here Frank.

F**k off, Intrepid!

This conversation can be carried on without you, Frank. I, for one, will no longer respond to your posts due to this type of response on your part.

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Ditto!

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What? No response?

Intrepid wrote:

The answer as to when human life begins could be answered in three different ways. Religious, Philosphical or Biological.

As we know, the religious theory is open to much debate as there are those who do not prescribe to religion in any form. Philosophic theory is also left open to much debate. There is finally another theory which can answer the question of when does life begin. It is the biological theory. Biological human life is defined by studying the scientific facts of human development. This field of study has no disagreements and no controversy. Bottom line is that there is truly only one set of facts. The more knowledge that has been learned about human development, the more science confirms that life, biologically speaking, begins at conception. This means that at conception there is a human who is very much alive, human, complete and growing.

When something has the potential to become human, it is human. A non human does not grow and develop and become a human.

To say that a fetus is not a person until it can survive outside of the womb is still an arbitrary concept. Why not when a heartbeat begins (at about 3 weeks) or when brainwaves can be detected (at about 6 weeks). Also, as I have said before...even when a baby is born, it is many years before the child can survive without the aid of other people. If they have nobody to care for them, why not "abort" them too.

This is not only a legal situation, but is also a moral situation. Of course, laws vary and so do morals. We can discuss this forever (some prefer to call it debate). How do you debate something that does not have a clear and sound definition? It seems that the definition is what is being debated. At least, that is what I think.

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Hey, it's the best he can do - I never knew the old geezer was racist until today, but it has long since been past the point I'd be suprised at the depths to which he'd sink.

Life has its consolations - can you imagine having to live inside a head as f**cked up as Apisa's? Trying as hard as he does to damage people's faith, but not having the benefit of faith in anything but his own intellect? Having to appear dismissive of anything hopeful in conversations about God, when you're at that point in life when mortality has to stay in your consciousness constantly? Damn! I wonder if he has to drive a souped-up car as additional compensation, along with all his badass words?

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Snood,

You know, I have often thought about what it must be like to think the way Frank does. It makes my heart hurt. How can someone be so lost they could reduce the life of a child to that of a parasite? I may get angry at Frank for the way he puts down Christians and for his abusive manner, but I think more than that, I feel sorry for him.

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djbt wrote:

You seem to be saying that a 'human being' has rights, or at least trump-suit rights, which living beings that are not human beings do not have. To rephrase my questions:

(1) What qualities must a something possess to be called a 'human being'?
(2) Why do these qualities mean that a 'human being' has 'rights'?
(3) At what stage of pregnancy does a fetus develop these qualities?

(1) A functioning human brain with the capacity for self-awareness.
(2) There are no inherent rights. The only "rights" anyone has are those granted to them by society in which they live. Rights may be granted to enable the society to function better or out of empathy for the feelings and aspirations of our fellow human beings.
(3) The fetal brain takes at least 24 weeks to develop to the point where self-awareness might be possible. At 30 weeks it is a functioning human brain by anyone's defination, but its capacity for self-awareness is still questionable.

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Life begins at conception.

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Momma Angel wrote:

You know, I find all of this so sad. I just came from a week of vacation spent with other people trying to find things to do to support our troops.

Our troops are fighting for our very rights. I think they would be saddened if they knew that so many were using those rights so disrespectfully.

Our rights are not at stake in Iraq, only our access to cheap oil.

How is aborting unwanted cells murder in your mind, but bombing Iraqi children and sending young American men and women into harm's way is NOT murder?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Well, I can see you haven't softened in any sense of the word.

The saddest thing of all is someone that calls a miracle nonsense.

And, if it makes it easier for you and others to not consider it a child so you can justify your "championing a woman's rights", have at it. It doesn't change a thing. Wrong is wrong and right is right.

Killing is wrong.

Is life truly a miracle? Millions of things are brought into "life" every single day. Millions of "lives" are extinguished every day. Is something that happen millions if not billions of time over still a miracle?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Life begins at conception.

No, life is present long before conception. Hundreds of eggs and billions of sperm are just as much alive and have just as much potential to become a living human being as a fertilized egg.

Life legally begins at birth. And if you believe the Bible, the soul/spirit is infused with the first breath a baby takes.

You can believe anything you want, but you have no right to impose your unfounded religious ideas on anyone else, especially when it involves something as personal and life-altering as pregnancy.

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ABORTION.......

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