auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2005 11:07 pm
>>>> pro choice
It bothers me when I hear women hollering about wanting choices. I wish people would call abortion what it is. The conscientious decision to kill an unborn life. The only way to stop a life from developing and growing once it has been conceived is to kill it either inside or outside of the womb(except natural death). Get rid of the euphemisms.
Barring those instances where a woman has had a pregnancy forced on her, such as rape, isn't becoming pregnant a choice? So what happened? Was it beyond her(his) ability to keep from becoming pregnant? If so then where is the choice in that? Doesn't choice begin long before the need for an abortion? I guess what really bothers me is to hear it sound like abortion is a choice to prevent pregnancy. It bothers me to hear how life is regarded as if it has no value and no respect because it is so easily expendible. That is my opinion. People will do what people will do.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2005 11:13 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
From the same source you have quoted (AGI USA)

Quote:
Abortion is a common experience: At current rates, about one in three American women will have had an abortion by the time she reaches age 45. Moreover, a broad cross section of U.S. women have abortions. 56% of women having abortions are in their 20s; 61% have one or more children; 67% have never married; 57% are economically disadvantaged; 88% live in a metropolitan area; and 78% report a religious affiliation. No racial or ethnic group makes up a majority: 41% of women obtaining abortions are white non-Hispanic, 32% are black non-Hispanic, 20% are Hispanic and 7% are of other racial backgrounds.


No racial or ethnic group makes up a majority.....

Now let's examine your horror stories about abortion.
The facts are:

Quote:
Vacuum aspiration (the suction method) is the most common type of abortion. It is a surgical procedure that involves anesthesia and can be performed within the first trimester of pregnancy. In vacuum aspiration, the cervix (bottom part of the uterus) is gently "dilated" (opened) about a quarter-inch, a narrow tube is inserted through the vagina and cervix to the uterus, and then contents of the uterine internal lining are vacuumed out. The procedure takes only a couple minutes and the woman can usually return home later in the day.

Abortions are more rare in the second trimester, which begins in the 13th week of pregnancy. In these procedures, a medication called prostaglandin is generally given in a clinic. This results in uterine contractions, which can last some hours, and usually is accompanied by some anesthesia. Many doctors who will perform first-trimester abortions will not perform them during second trimester; women may need referral to specialists with greater experience here.

Third-trimester abortions (after 24 weeks) are reserved for severely deformed fetuses or for when the mother's life is in danger.


The following statement is your opinion and you are
certainly entitled to it, however has no merit in a court
of law, gladly so, I might add.

Quote:
The unborn obviously resides within the mother and is desparately dependent upon the mother for safety and well being, but the unborn is biologically not part of the mother's body.


No racial or ethnic group makes up a majority. True. Isn't that odd since it does not reflect the population at large? Abortion among minority women is much higher in proportion than the percentage of minority populace; while abortion among whites is much lower in proportion than the percentage of white populace.

You stated that the majority (in your experience) were white. You quoted statistics however which showed that this is not the case overall, which proves exactly what I had said, that your experience is atypical.

---------------------------------

You quote verbiage giving details of vacuum aspiration abortions. Yes those occur. Are you trying to imply from this that saline abortions, D&C abortions or partial birth abortions do not occur? What exactly is your point? In all cases the unborn does not survive the procedure, so what exactly are you attempting to prove?

----------------------------------

You mention the legal aspect of abortion and that you are glad it is legal. But I suspect you would support abortion if it was illegal as well, would you not?

If this is the case, let me ask: If abortion were illegal tomorrow and the unborn had the full protection of the law as a human being with rights under the Constitution, how would you justify breaking that law?

If you are proposing that a woman has rights which do not depend upon the recognition of the law, then how can you deny rights to the unborn simply on the basis that the law does not recognize those rights? Isn't that quite a contradiction?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2005 11:53 pm
aurorell,
"pro choice" is a recognized term, which indicates the support for a woman's right to choose if she opts for abortion or if she decides to continue with her pregnancy. Pro choice is
not equivalent to abortion, pro choice allows the woman to
have an alternative, including full-term pregnancy.

real life,
why would I answer hypothetical questions "if abortion
were illegal tomorrow?" I am not proposing that a woman
has rights - it is a FACT!
Like it or not, abortion is legal - period!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 05:06 am
auroreII wrote:
>>>> pro choice
It bothers me when I hear women hollering about wanting choices. I wish people would call abortion what it is. The conscientious decision to kill an unborn life. The only way to stop a life from developing and growing once it has been conceived is to kill it either inside or outside of the womb(except natural death). Get rid of the euphemisms.
Barring those instances where a woman has had a pregnancy forced on her, such as rape, isn't becoming pregnant a choice?



No!

But even if it were...are you saying that making one choice means you can never make another? Or are you saying that you cannot make a choice and change your mind?


Quote:
So what happened? Was it beyond her(his) ability to keep from becoming pregnant? If so then where is the choice in that?


What differnce does it make?


Quote:
Doesn't choice begin long before the need for an abortion?


Only in the minds of religious fanatics who need a slogan that makes sense to them. Luckily...most slogans don't have to make much sense in order to make sense to them.


Quote:
I guess what really bothers me is to hear it sound like abortion is a choice to prevent pregnancy.


Well stop hearing it that way...and it won't bother you. It is a rather simplistic view of the situation in any case.


Quote:
It bothers me to hear how life is regarded as if it has no value and no respect because it is so easily expendible.



Well, the god of the Bible apparently feels that way...but I don't think it applies to women in need of an abortion at all.


Quote:
That is my opinion. People will do what people will do.


Thank you for expressing it. And you are correct that people will do what people will do.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 05:07 am
CalamityJane wrote:
aurorell,
"pro choice" is a recognized term, which indicates the support for a woman's right to choose if she opts for abortion or if she decides to continue with her pregnancy. Pro choice is
not equivalent to abortion, pro choice allows the woman to
have an alternative, including full-term pregnancy.


It is amazing how the anti-choice faction cannot see that!

Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 05:21 am
It really pisses me off when I hear someone talk about "choosing life", and then never consider what happens when a pregnancy is taken to term, and an unwanted child is born.

I think that people who are militantly anti-abortion, should be obliged to raise and support at least one unwanted child. I say "put your money where your mouth is"! Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 06:06 am
I hear that Phoenix!
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 06:33 am
Abortion should not be a method of birth control. People should be responsible for their actions. What about adoption?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 07:42 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
It really pisses me off when I hear someone talk about "choosing life", and then never consider what happens when a pregnancy is taken to term, and an unwanted child is born.

I think that people who are militantly anti-abortion, should be obliged to raise and support at least one unwanted child. I say "put your money where your mouth is"! Evil or Very Mad


Many anti abortion folks have adopted children. And many more do all the time.

Shortages of children available for adoption have been the norm in this country for years. Demand far outstrips supply and many have gone overseas to adopt.

Probably you knew this already so what's your point?

Bring as many "unwanted" children to my house as you wish and I GUARANTEE that I will find homes for them where they are wanted and loved. I will put it in writing with money in escrow that is yours if I fail to perform.

The pro-abortion garbage about "prolifers don't care about living children" is just that -- garbage.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 07:46 am
Intrepid wrote:
Abortion should not be a method of birth control. People should be responsible for their actions. What about adoption?


In an ideal world, abortion should never be a form of birth control. Problem is, that we don't live in an ideal world, and there ARE people who will be careless in their sexual behavior. Talking in general, I doubt whether a person who uses abortion as birth control would make the ideal, or even adequate parent.

You say that people should be responsible for their actions. How responsible is it to carry a fetus to term, give birth to an unwanted baby, and then palm the infant off on the government, or some other person to raise, nurture and support it?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 07:54 am
Quote:
Shortages of children available for adoption have been the norm in this country for years. Demand far outstrips supply and many have gone overseas to adopt.

Probably you knew this already so what's your point?


Actually, I haven't, as there is no shortage of adoptable
children in this country. One trip to your local Social SErvices
would prove you otherwise. That's where the abused children
are registerted, the unwanted children, and the children with
special needs.

How do I know? I adopted a child from Social Services!

There might be a shortage of blond and blue eyed infants,
but there is no shortage of children waiting for a home.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 09:04 am
Real Life wrote:
Bring as many "unwanted" children to my house as you wish and I GUARANTEE that I will find homes for them where they are wanted and loved. I will put it in writing with money in escrow that is yours if I fail to perform.


Calamity Jane makes an excellent point. Does your "deal" include older, abused, emotionally disturbed, physically handicapped, and mixed race kids?
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 09:40 am
Calamity Jane is right.
There are always kids waiting for a loving home.

And if there weren't: in my opinion that'd be a good thing.

Regardless of all that, adoption isn't a feasible answer for all unwanted pregnancies.

Abortion is not a form of birth control. It is a termination of a pregnancy.
Adoption is not a form of birth control. It is a termination of parental rights.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 04:15 pm
flushd wrote:
Calamity Jane is right.
There are always kids waiting for a loving home.

And if there weren't: in my opinion that'd be a good thing.

Regardless of all that, adoption isn't a feasible answer for all unwanted pregnancies.


What do you mean by that?

It may not be the method of choice by some...but "feasible?"
0 Replies
 
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 05:13 pm
>>>>>>pro choice allows the woman to
have an alternative, including full-term pregnancy.

It seems to me that abortion comes after the fact. Wouldn't you say that women wanting abortions do so because they feel that they made wrong choices that led to unwanted pregnancy. The choice has already been made. So to say that there is a choice to be made BETWEEN bringing a baby to term and having an abortion doesn't make sense to me. She's pregnant and that's a fact not a choice. She can't really choose to bring her pregnancy to term because (barring natural death) it's going to happen, regardless- unless the woman makes a conscientious decision to kill the life growing within her. You're not choosing between life and death. By the time someone feels they need an abortion a new life already exists. Perhaps you don't believe that it is a new life, but I do and so for me I see it as only having one choice. You're choosing death. That's the choice. IMO
I just don't like the terminology- pro-choice.


I once read a story about Dr. Albert Schweitzer. It seems that Dr. S used to make his native helpers capture the flies that had gotten caught in the screening of the buildings and tents and release them unharmed outside. The person who told this story was someone who had gone to offer his assistance to the doctor. His first impression was that the doctor was so kind a man and so reverent of life that even the flies were spared. Actually when he asked Dr. S about this the doctor said that it wasn't about the flies. It was about the reverence of life. It seems that at one time one of his helpers refused to help care for a patient because this patient was of another tribe and each tribe had distain for the other. By encouraging his helpers to reverence all life even in its smallest form he hoped to foster a spirit of caring and reverence of life for life's sake in his helpers. It doesn't seem that supporting abortion would help to foster that same reverence of life.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 05:54 pm
auroreII wrote:
>>>>>>pro choice allows the woman to
have an alternative, including full-term pregnancy.

It seems to me that abortion comes after the fact. Wouldn't you say that women wanting abortions do so because they feel that they made wrong choices that led to unwanted pregnancy.


No. That may be the case some times...but don't you think that is a rather unnecessary generalization?


Quote:
The choice has already been made.


And what if a "choice" had not been made? What about rape, for instance.


Quote:
So to say that there is a choice to be made BETWEEN bringing a baby to term and having an abortion doesn't make sense to me.



Sounds rather close-minded on your part. It makes plenty of sense to me...and if it makes sense to a pregnant woman who wants to end her pregnancy...what business is that of yours or the government?


Quote:
She's pregnant and that's a fact not a choice. She can't really choose to bring her pregnancy to term because (barring natural death) it's going to happen, regardless- unless the woman makes a conscientious decision to kill the life growing within her.


Oh, please. Gimme a break.


Quote:
You're not choosing between life and death. By the time someone feels they need an abortion a new life already exists.


And you can take it off on your income tax???


Quote:
Perhaps you don't believe that it is a new life, but I do...


So don't have an abortion. What is the big deal. And what is the big deal about stuff you "believe?" If you "believed" you were Napoleaon...would that place us under any obligations in your opinion?


Quote:
..
and so for me I see it as only having one choice.


Once again...I think this is a function of your close-mindedness rather than reality.


Quote:
You're choosing death. That's the choice. IMO


If a person chooses to have an abortion....they are chosing to have an abortion. Live with that.


Quote:
I just don't like the terminology- pro-choice.


I can tell. Tough. Grow up and get over it.


Quote:

I once read a story about Dr. Albert Schweitzer. It seems that Dr. S used to make his native helpers capture the flies that had gotten caught in the screening of the buildings and tents and release them unharmed outside. The person who told this story was someone who had gone to offer his assistance to the doctor. His first impression was that the doctor was so kind a man and so reverent of life that even the flies were spared. Actually when he asked Dr. S about this the doctor said that it wasn't about the flies. It was about the reverence of life. It seems that at one time one of his helpers refused to help care for a patient because this patient was of another tribe and each tribe had distain for the other. By encouraging his helpers to reverence all life even in its smallest form he hoped to foster a spirit of caring and reverence of life for life's sake in his helpers. It doesn't seem that supporting abortion would help to foster that same reverence of life.


What pathetic schmaltz!
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 10:13 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Quote:
Shortages of children available for adoption have been the norm in this country for years. Demand far outstrips supply and many have gone overseas to adopt.

Probably you knew this already so what's your point?


Actually, I haven't, as there is no shortage of adoptable
children in this country. One trip to your local Social SErvices
would prove you otherwise. That's where the abused children
are registerted, the unwanted children, and the children with
special needs.

How do I know? I adopted a child from Social Services!

There might be a shortage of blond and blue eyed infants,
but there is no shortage of children waiting for a home.


Parents adopting overseas do not often get blond haired blue eyed infants.

I congratulate you on your adoption. I know very many people who have adopted, some from overseas, some thru social services, some thru maternity homes that are set up as alternatives to abortion.

Children under the auspices of a state Social Services dept are not always available for adoption as you probably know (although some are) . Very often they are in foster care for long periods because the state is slow (and usually for good reason, this should not be an easy or fast process) to sever parental rights. The resultant red tape and long delays are a key factor that convinces many to look overseas.

Was the child you adopted "unwanted" by somebody? Should that mother have aborted her unborn? What would you as a PP counsellor have said to her?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 10:19 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Real Life wrote:
Bring as many "unwanted" children to my house as you wish and I GUARANTEE that I will find homes for them where they are wanted and loved. I will put it in writing with money in escrow that is yours if I fail to perform.


Calamity Jane makes an excellent point. Does your "deal" include older, abused, emotionally disturbed, physically handicapped, and mixed race kids?


Is abuse a good rationale for abortion? Let's see. Does the mother know while she is pregnant that the child will be abused?

Is an emotional problem a good rationale for abortion? See above.

Is being bi-racial a good rationale for abortion? Are you going to make the argument that life as a bi-racial person isn't worth living?

Is a physical handicap a good rationale for abortion? See above.

Which of these conditions is a good rationale for pronouncing a death sentence on the unborn?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 10:27 pm
real life wrote:
CalamityJane wrote:
Your description of abortion as only relating to the woman's body is incorrect since the unborn's body is the one that is chemically burned during a saline abortion; or hacked, sliced and dismembered during a D&C abortion; or in the case of a partial birth abortion the unborn's head is pierced at the base of the skull and a vacuum sucks the brain out.

Now let's examine your horror stories about abortion.



Aside from the fact that you never truly examined them (you simply described other methods of abortion that are also used), I am glad at least that you recognize the horrible nature of these procedures. Can you express your agreement then that saline abortions, D&C abortions and partial birth abortions should not be performed?
0 Replies
 
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 11:11 pm
>>>>>And what is the big deal about stuff you "believe?"

Overall purpose (Taken from the spirituality and religion debate guidelines as outlined by the administrator)

"Our wish for this forum is that all who attend come away with a richer understanding of the issues being debated, and with an increased appreciation of differing viewpoints held by others. These guidelines are in place to encourage that end above any others."

Perhaps I was wrong when I read that these forums are a place to express our views? I think that is what I've tried to do without attacking another person's viewpoint. I really am trying to do that. Perhaps I've been a little too sharp? I believe I'm only defending my viewpoint when someone disagrees with me. Although in your case Frank I don't know how to defend against your adamant insistence that women should be able to have an abortion if they want one, end of discussion. That's your opinion and I do respect that . Can you respect that I have an opinion? Can we at least agree to disagee?
Frank, When I tell a person that I believe life begins at conception, it is because I believe it is the truth and that people and the government have been duped into believing that is not true through the use of euphemisms which are intended to cover up a moral wrong. But I can't force that opinion on anyone. They can choose to accept or reject it.

You asked what business is it of mine or the government's what a woman wants to do with her body? I am the government. I vote. (as are you if you vote). The government pays for those abortions. Tax payers- me. I pay for those abortions. Taxpayers pay for those abortion clinics- me. Taxpayers pay for the schools that teach doctors abortion. Hey I'm all for the government not having any part in a woman's abortion. Let's not have any federally funded abortions. And let's do away with those nasty government health regulations for abortion . And let's let the government refuse to give government loans to those student doctors who want to perform abortions. I respect the government. That means as long as abortion is legal I will respect that, but I have a right under the law to lobby my opinions (as you do yours). I doubt the law will ever be able to find a decision on abortion that will satisfy everybody.
If abortion is solely the woman's decision then should we just hand her a scalpel and let her get to it? Maybe we should decide to let abortion proponents fund their own clinics and schools and abortions. Are you really going to tell me that it is none of my business or the government's if a woman has an abortion? If you want to spend your hard earned dollars paying for other people's mistakes I won't stand in your way. As for me I hope I can convince people that there is a better way. I don't think it is so wrong to encourage people to have reverence for human life so that they hopefully will make choices to avoid ever having anything to do with abortion.
0 Replies
 
 

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