ABORTION.......

Is abuse a good rationale for abortion? Let's see. Does the mother know while she is pregnant that the child will be abused?

Is an emotional problem a good rationale for abortion? See above.

Is being bi-racial a good rationale for abortion? Are you going to make the argument that life as a bi-racial person isn't worth living?

Is a physical handicap a good rationale for abortion? See above.

Which of these conditions is a good rationale for pronouncing a death sentence on the unborn?

>>>>>And what is the big deal about stuff you "believe?"

Overall purpose (Taken from the spirituality and religion debate guidelines as outlined by the administrator)

"Our wish for this forum is that all who attend come away with a richer understanding of the issues being debated, and with an increased appreciation of differing viewpoints held by others. These guidelines are in place to encourage that end above any others."

Perhaps I was wrong when I read that these forums are a place to express our views? I think that is what I've tried to do without attacking another person's viewpoint. I really am trying to do that. Perhaps I've been a little too sharp? I believe I'm only defending my viewpoint when someone disagrees with me. Although in your case Frank I don't know how to defend against your adamant insistence that women should be able to have an abortion if they want one, end of discussion. That's your opinion and I do respect that . Can you respect that I have an opinion? Can we at least agree to disagee?
Frank, When I tell a person that I believe life begins at conception, it is because I believe it is the truth and that people and the government have been duped into believing that is not true through the use of euphemisms which are intended to cover up a moral wrong. But I can't force that opinion on anyone. They can choose to accept or reject it.

You asked what business is it of mine or the government's what a woman wants to do with her body? I am the government. I vote. (as are you if you vote). The government pays for those abortions. Tax payers- me. I pay for those abortions. Taxpayers pay for those abortion clinics- me. Taxpayers pay for the schools that teach doctors abortion. Hey I'm all for the government not having any part in a woman's abortion. Let's not have any federally funded abortions. And let's do away with those nasty government health regulations for abortion . And let's let the government refuse to give government loans to those student doctors who want to perform abortions. I respect the government. That means as long as abortion is legal I will respect that, but I have a right under the law to lobby my opinions (as you do yours). I doubt the law will ever be able to find a decision on abortion that will satisfy everybody.
If abortion is solely the woman's decision then should we just hand her a scalpel and let her get to it? Maybe we should decide to let abortion proponents fund their own clinics and schools and abortions. Are you really going to tell me that it is none of my business or the government's if a woman has an abortion? If you want to spend your hard earned dollars paying for other people's mistakes I won't stand in your way. As for me I hope I can convince people that there is a better way. I don't think it is so wrong to encourage people to have reverence for human life so that they hopefully will make choices to avoid ever having anything to do with abortion.

If someone (person A) hired someone else (person B) to kill a person (person C). Would person A who hired person B be liable for the death of person C. Person A didn't actually do the killing, he just paid for it.
Most courts would say that Person A was an accessory to the killing.

>>>>>>...it is NONE OF YOUR GODDAM BUSINESS whether or not a woman wants to end a pregnancy via abortion. If you think it is wrong...don't have one yourself.

If my tax dollars are going to fund abortions then aren't I an accessory to that woman's abortion? You say that if I don't want an abortion I shouldn't have one, so why is it that I as a tax payer must provide funds for something that I don't want.

Are you going to fund a woman's decision to have an abortion?

I'm not trying to argue the legality of abortion. I think we agreed to disagree on that. All I'm saying is shouldn't we try to encourage people to support life...

...and make choices so that there isn't any need for abortions.

real life wrote:

Is abuse a good rationale for abortion? Let's see. Does the mother know while she is pregnant that the child will be abused?

Is an emotional problem a good rationale for abortion? See above.

Is being bi-racial a good rationale for abortion? Are you going to make the argument that life as a bi-racial person isn't worth living?

Is a physical handicap a good rationale for abortion? See above.

Which of these conditions is a good rationale for pronouncing a death sentence on the unborn?

Wow! You really did not understand what I wrote, did you? Of course one does not always know what is going to happen when a woman is pregnant. What I said, is that many of the kids who are born and left to languish in foster care, are kids with problems. Those are the ones who rarely get adopted, and the cycle of misery continues.

Do I think that if a woman knows, through amniocentesis that her fetus has a severe handicap, is a reason for abortion? DEFINITELY. I have had an experience like that in my own family. The couple are ultra religious. When the woman became pregnant, I asked her when she was going to have her amnio, as she was mature for a first time mother. She bristled, reared up, and said that she would take whatever God gave her.

Now the couple is saddled to a child who is microcephalic, and has an IQ a few points lower than a turnip. She is blind, not because her eyes are bad, but that there is no connection between her brain and her eyes. Her quality of life is almost nil. The family's life revolves around caring for her. What will happen to her when her parents become too elderly to take care of her?

Should she have been aborted? DEFINITELY!

real life wrote:

Is abuse a good rationale for abortion? Let's see. Does the mother know while she is pregnant that the child will be abused?

Is an emotional problem a good rationale for abortion? See above.

Is being bi-racial a good rationale for abortion? Are you going to make the argument that life as a bi-racial person isn't worth living?

Is a physical handicap a good rationale for abortion? See above.

Which of these conditions is a good rationale for pronouncing a death sentence on the unborn?

Wow! You really did not understand what I wrote, did you? Of course one does not always know what is going to happen when a woman is pregnant. What I said, is that many of the kids who are born and left to languish in foster care, are kids with problems. Those are the ones who rarely get adopted, and the cycle of misery continues.

Do I think that if a woman knows, through amniocentesis that her fetus has a severe handicap, is a reason for abortion? DEFINITELY. I have had an experience like that in my own family. The couple are ultra religious. When the woman became pregnant, I asked her when she was going to have her amnio, as she was mature for a first time mother. She bristled, reared up, and said that she would take whatever God gave her.

Now the couple is saddled to a child who is microcephalic, and has an IQ a few points lower than a turnip. She is blind, not because her eyes are bad, but that there is no connection between her brain and her eyes. Her quality of life is almost nil. The family's life revolves around caring for her. What will happen to her when her parents become too elderly to take care of her?

Should she have been aborted? DEFINITELY!

Strange isn't it, that you consider yourself "pro-choice" , i.e. that the woman alone should have the choice and it's only HER choice that is valid; yet when this woman makes HER choice to let HER child live then somehow to you that is NOT a valid choice?

Truly you are NOT pro-choice, you are simply PRO-ABORTION, Phoenix32890[/b].

real life wrote:

Strange isn't it, that you consider yourself "pro-choice" , i.e. that the woman alone should have the choice and it's only HER choice that is valid; yet when this woman makes HER choice to let HER child live then somehow to you that is NOT a valid choice?

If the embryo wants to express a choice...let it speak up. If not...

Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:

Strange isn't it, that you consider yourself "pro-choice" , i.e. that the woman alone should have the choice and it's only HER choice that is valid; yet when this woman makes HER choice to let HER child live then somehow to you that is NOT a valid choice?

If the embryo wants to express a choice...let it speak up. If not...

Might makes right, eh Frank? Your argument sinks pretty low, pretty fast.

Do you agree with Phoenix, that the woman she described should have aborted?

Are you truly "pro-choice" or just pro-abortion?

real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:

Strange isn't it, that you consider yourself "pro-choice" , i.e. that the woman alone should have the choice and it's only HER choice that is valid; yet when this woman makes HER choice to let HER child live then somehow to you that is NOT a valid choice?

If the embryo wants to express a choice...let it speak up. If not...

Might makes right, eh Frank? Your argument sinks pretty low, pretty fast.

Hey...you are the one making decisions for the embryo. If you can...why can't the woman carrying the embryo?

Answer that!

Quote:

Do you agree with Phoenix, that the woman she described should have aborted?

Yes I do.

Quote:

Are you truly "pro-choice" or just pro-abortion?

I am pro-choice.

If you are "pro-choice", why do you not respect and support the woman's choice when she made a choice NOT to abort? Your "pro-choice" label is a smoke and mirrors fiction for being pro-abortion.

Your statement that the embryo should speak up if he wants to live is, of course, preposterous. Why doesn't a newborn one day old, two days old, etc "speak up" if he wants to live?

The woman has the right to determine what happens to HER. The unborn is not the same as the mother.

The unborn is genetically distinct from a medical standpoint. You are in huge denial on this point.

He has his own heartbeat and brainwaves at a very early stage. You are huge denial here as well.

He is not an 'undifferentiated clump of cells,' as many abortion fans continue to claim.

The abortionist nor the mother should have the right to extinguish the unborn simply because he is defenseless and CANNOT "speak up" for himself.

If we want a world where those who don't or can't "speak up" lose their lives as a result, then we are headed for anarchy, and a vicious, bloody time of it as well.

Remember, Frank...... don't get old and sick. Your friends may start to take your views seriously when you least thought they would.

real life wrote:

If you are "pro-choice", why do you not respect and support the woman's choice when she made a choice NOT to abort? Your "pro-choice" label is a smoke and mirrors fiction for being pro-abortion.

WTF are you talking about?

I do respect a choice not to abort.

Does that mean I cannot have an opinion that an abortion would have been a better choice?

Are you capable of any thinking?

Quote:

Your statement that the embryo should speak up if he wants to live is, of course, preposterous. Why doesn't a newborn one day old, two days old, etc "speak up" if he wants to live?

No more preposterous than you deciding that the embryo would opt for birth.

Who are you to decide for the embryo?

Quote:

The woman has the right to determine what happens to HER. The unborn is not the same as the mother.

Okay...so if she decides she no longer wants to continue her pregnancy...she determines that and acts on it.

Quote:

The unborn is genetically distinct from a medical standpoint. You are in huge denial on this point.

I have never denied that. Why do you make this horseshyt up??????

Why can't you deal with what actually is said...rather than engage in this kind of bullshyt???

I deny that the embryo or the fetus is a "living human being."

That is not to say that the fetus or the embryo is not genetically distinct from the mother.

Get your head out of your ass.

Quote:

He has his own heartbeat and brainwaves at a very early stage. You are huge denial here as well.

No I am not, goddamit. As I have said a half-dozen times in several different threads...a goddam heartbeat...and some goddam brainwaves...do not make a fetus or an embryo a "living human being."

Wake the hell up!

Quote:

He is not an 'undifferentiated clump of cells,' as many abortion fans continue to claim.

"He" may not even be a he. And there are moments when the embryo is nothing more than a clump of undifferentiated cells.

Quote:

The abortionist nor the mother should have the right to extinguish the unborn simply because he is defenseless and CANNOT "speak up" for himself.

Says you. The Supreme Court of the United States says differently.

Quote:

If we want a world where those who don't or can't "speak up" lose their lives as a result, then we are headed for anarchy, and a vicious, bloody time of it as well.

Wake the hell up. If we continue to let you Christian nut cases intude on our rights...we will be headed for anarchy and a vicious bloody time of it also.

And I worry more about you Christian nut cases resulting in that...than I do protecting a woman's right to control her own body.

Quote:

Remember, Frank...... don't get old and sick. Your friends may start to take your views seriously when you least thought they would.

I hope so. I've asked all of them...and all of my relatives to consider me a bunch of worthless living tissue when the time comes that I get to that point. I hope if I am not capable of ending my life....if things get that extreme...that a friend or a relative does it for me.

What problem do you have with that...other than you silly fear of death?

Don't hide behind the Supreme Court, Frank.

You have said that you do not think the "right" to an abortion is dependent on the Supreme Court. You have said very plainly that you think the woman would have a "right" to an abortion even if abortion was illegal.

This is a quandry you cannot escape.

If the Supreme Court decided today that the unborn actually does have the right to live and have protection as a human being, then you would not jump to defend that right with a "Says you. The Supreme Court says the unborn has a right to live!" The double standard you hold is ludicrous.

If the woman can be supposed to have a "right" that is not dependent upon the law, then the unborn can also. Just because the law does not currently protect the right of the unborn to life does not prove that the unborn has no rights.

The Court was wrong in Dred Scott when it denied the right of personhood to blacks, and the Court is wrong now to deny the right of personhood to the unborn, Frank.

Frank said>>>>>>if it makes sense to a pregnant woman who wants to end her pregnancy...what business is that of yours or the government?

I said>>>>You asked what business is it of mine or the government's what a woman wants to do with her body? I am the government. I vote. (as are you if you vote). The government pays for those abortions. Tax payers- me. I pay for those abortions....Are you really going to tell me that it is none of my business or the government's if a woman has an abortion?

Frank said>>>>>>There are a whole bunch of things I don't want funded with my tax dollars...but that is not how things work. Get over it.

Yes...it is NONE OF YOUR GODDAM BUSINESS whether or not a woman wants to end a pregnancy via abortion. If you think it is wrong...don't have one yourself.


I said>>>>>If someone (person A) hired someone else (person B) to kill a person (person C). Would person A who hired person B be liable for the death of person C. Person A didn't actually do the killing, he just paid for it.
Most courts would say that Person A was an accessory to the killing.

If my tax dollars are going to fund abortions then aren't I an accessory to that woman's abortion? You say that if I don't want an abortion I shouldn't have one, so why is it that I as a tax payer must provide funds for something that I don't want.

Are you going to fund a woman's decision to have an abortion?


Frank said>>>>>
If my tax dollars are going to fund bombs and bullets used to kill other humans...am I an accessory to that savagery...or am I simply a tax payer whose funds occasionally are used in ways I would prefer they not be used?

I think "NO" to both scenarios.

I'm gonna pay my taxes.

..... start marching against these wars...and start demanding that lots of your tax dollars be sent over to countries that have babies....real live babies...starving to death.

That is "supporting life"...not this anti-choice bullshyt.

..... until such time as there isn't any "need" for abortions...which to my mind is when no women want an abortion...let's agree to support legalized abortions.




NEW>>>>>
FRANK,
I don't know about the government but I, privately, send money regularly to help the live starving babies. I truly hope that people will help support life.
I believe that life begins at conception. It is my impression that you do not believe this is so and we have agreed to disagree on this. The government has decided when a person is a viable human being. If the law says it's so then it must be right? It is my opinion that woman are being told a lie and are making decisions based on a lie. By saying that I should support abortion because it is legal are you saying that those who believe as I do have no right to express this view?

>>>>>>I'm gonna pay my taxes.

Are you saying that people should just pay their taxes and that they should have no say in how they are spent?
This got me wondering if it would be a good idea for abortions to be handled in the private secter by private funding from those who wish to support it.
You say we should support abortion because it is the law. I like our government and believe in supporting the law for the law's sake. Are you saying we should allow the law to dictate what to believe is right and what to believe is wrong? There is only one choice if you support abortion-death. I choose to support life. Right now I feel that the only way I can do that is to fight against abortion to keep from being a part of it. Privatizing abortion would not be the perfect solution for those who feel that abortion is legalized killing of innocent humans and therefore morally wrong, but it certainly wouldn't prevent people from having abortions and it would absolve all those people who didn't want to be (indirectly) part of these abortions.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen the law concerning abortion. If I did I don't remember it. Does it just decriminalize abortion or does it also guarantee an abortion to everyone who wants one?

The abortionist nor the mother should have the right to extinguish the unborn simply because he is defenseless and CANNOT "speak up" for himself.

If we want a world where those who don't or can't "speak up" lose their lives as a result, then we are headed for anarchy, and a vicious, bloody time of it as well.