ABORTION.......

MA. No, I don't think that abortion is OK. At best, in most every situation where an abortion is performed, there is a tragedy in the wings. The tragedy is not for the fetus, but for the woman, who has had to make this decision. I don't think that abortion is ever a happy choice. But I think that sometimes it is necessary, and nobody's business but the woman's.

So maybe the christian right ain't right, eh Frank? Funny you and I should agree. Or we may not be so far apart as you think.

Forget that I said that! Bad neo! Bad! Shush!

Funny you should say there is a tragedy for the woman. Why would here be a tragedy if there were no human potentiality for the fetus?

Rhetorical question. I am not really sure what your belief is.

Phoenix,

You cannot equate birth control with pregnancy. There is no child in the mix concerning birth control. We are talking about a fertilized egg that already has a life. You are trying to equate potential with actual here.

And me, have kids? No. I don't. I had to have an emergency hysterectomy when I was 22. But, it wouldn't matter. I would still feel the same way.

And tragedy for the woman? Why? Because she was irresponsible and didn't practice birth control? Oh yes, there are rapes, incest situations, etc., where her becoming pregnant was not her responsibility.

And I'm with Neologist. If it's just a fetus, growth, zygote, etc., what's the big tragedy for the woman? Danged good question Neo!

Ok, so you don't think abortion is ok. But you think it's okay for someone to get one because it's her choice? Isn't that sitting on the fence?

Off-topic philosophical babble. . .
Hey again MA,

I think I answered my own question at lunch. If you'll allow me, I'll explain what I meant further.

I realize that we all believe different things. Here's why I think the illegal/illegal argument is a bit flimsy in certain contexts:

I believe that we neglect human laws in the process. What I mean is, if I were a Christian, I would think there was a very clear hierarchy regarding which laws to give weight to and which ones to view skeptically or disregard. It would go like this-

Legal
Human
God's Laws.

In this picture god's would be at the top. Some of these rules are the same, ie no murder and no lying. And of course some conflict as well. I think the issue with abortion is really about autonomy. That is a human law and not a law of the christian god. I write this because of the ideas of submitting to god; following his rules or suffer consequence after death. (This has been my biggest problem with the christian use of free will. MA, would you mind giving me some biblical references on that? I know that we all have limited free will because we live in society. Society's laws can have legal or social consequences, though. They don't really apply to anything after death as far as I know. That's even more constrictive in my view. But I digress.) I believe human laws dictate our interactions in this world, even more so than our governement's laws. There is no law that says I shouldn't commit adultery in the human/legal sense. Yet, both christians and non-christians alike can rationally see how this is perjorative. In this point in our history we have a legal construct that supports women's self-rule concerning abortion. I conjecture that it is because our laws did not adequately represent our human laws in the past. You would contend that it takes us further away from god's laws, but in my view this is not cause to alter the legality simply because, no insult intended, christianity is an opinion that is not held by everyone in our society.

Now, I understand that you see the situation in another light. As you have stated previously, you believe god's law's take precedent over the governement's laws. I can understand that you feel that way as a christian. But I would remove god's law's from the equation entirely. I feel that what would remain would not be the amoral world that you fear it would be. I don't believe that religion, in your case christianity, is the definitive authority when it comes to morality.

Had you been a christian in ancient times, you would have been a criminal. And I would have been slaughtered right with you. Why? Cause I would've been an advocate of a christian's right to choose.

Any thoughts?

I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. ~Ronald Reagan, quoted in New York Times, 22 September 1980

MA- Why can't I? You are talking about denying a potential life. I am just taking the concept through to its logical conclusion.



No, because a woman is "programmed" biologically to become a mother. Her hormones and body are designed for having children. In primitive societies, women had as many children as they could bear physically.

In civilized societies, we understand that people do not have to be a slave to their biology. Despite that, there is still a conflict when a woman becomes pregnant. The choice to end the pregnancy is rife with opposing emotional and physical forces that make the decision to abort very difficult.

MA- You are quick to label a woman considering an abortion "irresponsible". I think that often an abortion may be an extremely RESPONSIBLE act, ending a pregnancy that might otherwise cause tragedy for all involved.

Hi Phoenix-

MA and I discussed this earlier. I tried to broach the subject slightly differently, from the sin angle.

I wrote:

Would you say that you support the use of birth control solely because it might alleviate the need for an abortion? If so, in the case of married couples, do you believe that they should use contraceptives if they choose or that because they are married and the aim of sex is to produce a child of God within a marriage, they should accept that conception is His will and refrain from contraceptives entirely? How is this not a sin as well?

MA replied:

I do not suport the use of birth control solely because it might alleviate the need for an abortion. I support the use of birth control because it alleviates the unwanted pregnancies, whether it be because a child is not convenient, affordable, etc. I do not know how to answer the accept that conception is His will question. I have no idea in this world how God views birth control. I know what some churches believe. I just don't know on this one.

These are from around pag. 30, if you'd like to read further.

Intreped,

I love that quote!

Shazzer,

Can you explain a little more about the biblical references you would like me to point out?

And as to taking God's laws out completely? Well, look at Sodom and Gomorrah, that is exactly what they did. They threw away God's laws and practiced every kind of immorality imaginable. But still, God would have spared the city if there were only ten righteous in it. There were not! So, I totally disagree with you on that point. God's laws, legal, then man. That is my stand on that and it won't change.

And I have stated my views on birth control. Now, I don't know if birth control is a sin or not. I don't find that specifically laid out in the Bible. But, I do know that the taking of a human life is forbidden in the Bible.

Phoenix,

I didn't realize we had already passed this discussion into a logical conclusion. But, I still do not equate birth control with actual pregnancy.

And quick to label a woman irresponsible. Perhaps!. And this, I can speak of from experience.

When I was 13 I was the victim of an incestual rape. I became pregnant. I, at NO TIME thought of aborting my child. Yes, it was in no way my responsibility that I became pregnant. But, I was pregnant and it was my child so that made it MY responsibility. Now, at 5 months, I miscarried. It was undoubtedly the most terrible thing I have ever been through. But now, I have taken that experience and have helped others who have been victims of incest and have faced some of the same situations. And, what tragedy would have been caused by my child being born? Embarrassment? So what! Shame? Not for me, I did nothing wrong. Embarrassment or shame for the family member that committed this sin against God and me? Most definitely. But, my child would have been loved and taught to love and taught the value of life. And aborting a child because it otherwise might cause tragedy for others? How selfish that sounds to me. How selfish it would have been of me to kill my child because of embarrassment or shame. And, this happed 36 years ago! The embarrassment and shame in that day would have been tenfold what it would be today. So, I feel that it is irresponsible to consider abortion because that child is my responsibility. And just because I don't want the responsibility I should kill my child? I think not.

Now, we will never agree on this issue unless one of us changes our minds. I assure you, it will not be me. I respect your right to believe what you believe. I respect the fact that the law says a woman may get an abortion. However, that does not mean I have to stop lobbying to change the law. That does not mean that I cannot exercise my constitutional rights to state what I feel, just as you have the very same rights.

Shazzer and Momma Angel- I think that the above sentence is the crux of our difficulties in attempting to communicate our thoughts, and come to some logical conculsions. I have made it my business to think through things myself, and make my own decisions, based on the knowledge and judgment that I have. I am not waiting for an edict from "on high".

MA- Let's put aside religion for the moment. What do YOU think about birth control?

The ones regarding free will.

MA- Thank you for sharing your very personal story of incest, miscarriage and hysterectomy. I think that I now have a better "handle" as to why you feel as strongly as you do. And you are entitled to your opinion.

Have you ever thought through as to how your experiences in your younger days shaped the feelings that you now hold? I think that it might be very helpful to you.

MA.... Sharing your story took courage and conviction on your part. I applaud your candor and selflessness in providing this background. A terrible ordeal for anyone to go through, but even the more traumatic for a 13 year old child.

For those that claim that only a fetus is being aborted by the pregnant mother.... Consider this.

If it isn't a baby, then you aren't pregnant. What/Why are you aborting?

Shazzer,

If you will give me a little time, I will be happy to do that for you. I am getting ready to go out of town tomorrow but I will post that for you before I leave.

Phoenix,

I really hope I am misinterpreting the sarcasm I detect in your post. I am just going to assume you are not being sarcastic.

Have I ever thought through as to how my experiences in my younger days shaped the feelings that I now hold? You betcha. Because of what had happened to me, I made some of the worse choices of my life in my younger years. I was angry and hurt and wanted to lash back at the world. BUT I WAS WRONG!!!!

It is not what happens to you in this world that matters, it is what you do with what happens to you.

Once I realized that I was doing the exact same thing someone had done to me (hurting someone else by my actions) and that the responsibility for what I was doing was mine, I made the positive changes in my life that got me where I am today. I no longer hold onto bitterness or anger or resentment. I have learned to forgive and to love and to go on with my life.

The only reason I shared those personal facts with you was because I was not seeming to get anywhere explaining my views to you. I thought perhaps if you understood my situation, then maybe you could understand a little more.

And yes, we are all entitled to our opinion.

Intrepid,

I appreciate you saying that but it is no longer a matter of having courage. It MOST DEFINITELY IS ABOUT MY CONVICTION!

Nor me. But I think it's great that we are discussing it.



MA, I believe this is understood. I get the impression sometimes that you feel that when one of us disagrees with you and writes with conviction, you feel we are trying to tell you not to lobby or think what you think. I personally don't feel that way, and don't recall such a post.



If I live a christian life, and live according bible, following the ten commandments save one: "And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God… 'You shall have no other gods before Me,' am I completely amoral? Am I like the people in Sodom? Will god not forgive me for this sin?

I know that you are convicted. I respect that. I know you feel like we are returning to Sodom with our ways. I feel though, that when you emphasize the way god punishes people that didn't follow his wishes, you provide ammunition for those who feel your god is a violent, merciless entity. I know that is not your intention, but that is how it can be interpreted.

Edited cause I messed up the quote thingy. . .again

Thanks.

I completely agree, Phoenix

MA- I hope that I did not come off as sarcastic. I think that you have been through a lot, and that you showed lots of courage to share your experiences with us.

Phoenix wrote:



It may be completely off-topic (and believe me, MA, I'm not trying to minimize your experience by following this thread of thinking), but do you (Phoenix) think that reading Atlas Shrugged affected you in a life changing way? Such that it would impact your political leanings? Just curious.

Shazzer- Absolutely, but it was all part of a process that was going on within me. I read Rand when I was 24, but I started questioning the existence of a God starting when I was about 12.
As far as my political leanings go, yeah, Rand opened my eyes to a lot.

The thing that one must be careful with a philosophy such as Rand's, is not to take it on "wholesale". That would be substituting one "religion" for another, and would defeat my goal of being as independent a thinker of which I am capable. Although I agree in essence with many of her concepts, that is not to say that I would not have many bones to pick with her.