ABORTION.......

Intrepid wrote:

Apples and oranges. On the one hand you are talking about a choice where one or the other will die. The other is when only the child will die and the mother is in good health. Let me open the door to the barn.

No apples...no oranges....just a hypothetical question.

Let her answer.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Every human being is born without any restrictions whatever except for the ones the society into which it is born imposes. Laws and constitutions do not really give freedoms...they take away license...take away unlimited freedom...in the interests of society. They often limit how much freedom can be taken away...which is what our constitution does.

Well said, Frank.

Another thought. If one looks at any backward society, one of the overriding concerns of that society is the regulation and repression of women, especially in the area of reproductive autonomy. It is the old patriarchial system, where a society literally keeps its women barefoot, pregnant, and subservient to the whims of the male.

Whether a woman is obliged to wear clothing that hides their entire body, so that a man might not be "tempted", the barbarity of clitoridectomy, the practice of "honor killings", women sold into sexual slavery, or the inability of a woman to make a choice over what she can or cannot do with her own body, even the strictures that some religions have over birth control, it is all part of the same phenomenon.

The difference is only a matter of degree.

Phoenix,

The unborn child's body is not the woman's body, although it resides within it and is dependent on it. (Siamese twins, although physically joined and dependent on each other for life, often by sharing vital organs, are still considered separate persons from a medical standpoint, are they not?)

The unborn has a distinctive DNA pattern from the very moment of conception, identifying him/her as a separate human being.

The unborn develops a heartbeat (measurable from the outside by the 24th day) before a large percentage of women even know that they are pregnant.

The rhetoric of identifying the unborn as "part of the woman's body" flies in the face of medical fact to the contrary.

If physical dependence implies ownership, loss of personhood and disposability; then infants long after they are born will still be in danger. They are not "viable" on their own for a very long time after being born, are they?

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Frank,

You are right. You did ask me that and I didn't answer it. I will do my best to do so.

I do not know if the Bible specifically states this type of situation, so, I won't be making my opinion/answer from there.

That is a tough one. I would talk to my daughter about what I believe. I would ask her what she believes. I would try to do it in a way that would not force "my wants" on her. Personally, if I were the one pregnant and may face death if I carried the child, I would choose to carry the child. I would put my faith in God and turn it over to Him. I cannot; however, make that decision for my daughter. If she were wanting to abort merely because she didn't want the child, etc., I would definitely counsel her against it. But, in the instance of her giving up her physical life or the physical life of her child, in a case where only one can survive, is a decision only she can make, and if she were my daughter, she would have been brought up to know God, and I would; therefore, hope she would pray and ask for His guidance and if she did, then I am sure she would make the right decision.

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Frank,
You are out in a boat with your wife and child (I don't know if you have 1 or several children). The boat capsizes and neither your wife or child (The "child can be anywhere up to an including adult age) can swim. You have the ability to save one of them. Which one will you save and why?

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank,
You are out in a boat with your wife and child (I don't know if you have 1 or several children). The boat capsizes and neither your wife or child (The "child can be anywhere up to an including adult age) can swim. You have the ability to save one of them. Which one will you save and why?

I have no children...and I have no grandchildren...and I swim like a stone. You wanna try something else?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

You are right. You did ask me that and I didn't answer it. I will do my best to do so.

I do not know if the Bible specifically states this type of situation, so, I won't be making my opinion/answer from there.

That is a tough one. I would talk to my daughter about what I believe. I would ask her what she believes. I would try to do it in a way that would not force "my wants" on her. Personally, if I were the one pregnant and may face death if I carried the child, I would choose to carry the child. I would put my faith in God and turn it over to Him. I cannot; however, make that decision for my daughter. If she were wanting to abort merely because she didn't want the child, etc., I would definitely counsel her against it. But, in the instance of her giving up her physical life or the physical life of her child, in a case where only one can survive, is a decision only she can make, and if she were my daughter, she would have been brought up to know God, and I would; therefore, hope she would pray and ask for His guidance and if she did, then I am sure she would make the right decision.

Thank you for your response...and I ackknowledge that the question posed is not an easy one to deal with. But the fact is...I'm not actually sure you answered the question if specifically asked.

Let me just make sure I understand what you've said.

I asked "Would you advise your daughter to have the abortion or would you advise your daughter not to have the abortion. "

Obviously you did not say you would advise her to have the abortion...and equally obviously, you did not say you would advise her not to have it....

...but there is the possibility you said that you would not offer her advise?

Is that your position?

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Intrepid,

Hypothetical:

Characterized by, or of the nature of, an hypothesis; conditional; assumed without proof, for the purpose of reasoning and deducing proof, or of accounting for some fact or phenomenon

1. I have no daughter.
2. Therefore, she is not pregnant.
3. Therefore, again, she is not in a position to choose her life or her child's life.

Now, I answered your hypothetical question Frank. Why won't you answer Intrepid's? You seem to pride yourself on the fact that you answer all questions put to you.

In my opinion, what you gave is not an answer. It appears to be a justification for not answering the question.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Frank,
You are out in a boat with your wife and child (I don't know if you have 1 or several children). The boat capsizes and neither your wife or child (The "child can be anywhere up to an including adult age) can swim. You have the ability to save one of them. Which one will you save and why?

I have no children...and I have no grandchildren...and I swim like a stone. You wanna try something else?

I forgot about the 2 aborted children, thus the lack of current or future grandchildren as well. This was a hypotheticl question and you did not answer it. I will not bother asking you to answer these hard questions that are beyond your comprehension.

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Frank,
You are out in a boat with your wife and child (I don't know if you have 1 or several children). The boat capsizes and neither your wife or child (The "child can be anywhere up to an including adult age) can swim. You have the ability to save one of them. Which one will you save and why?

I have no children...and I have no grandchildren...and I swim like a stone. You wanna try something else?

I forgot about the 2 aborted children, thus the lack of current or future grandchildren as well. This was a hypotheticl question and you did not answer it. I will not bother asking you to answer these hard questions that are beyond your comprehension.

Well...this is more pathetic bullshyt on your part.

I don't swim.

My wife....part of your hypothetical...swims like Buster Crabbe.

I have absolutely no f******g idea of which I would "save"....because your hypothetical makes absolutely no goddam sense.

And now, because you make an ignorant mistake...you are going to try to lay it at my doorstep.

You really are a pathetic debater, Intrepid.

No wonder you are one of the sheep.

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Frank,

If, what you are asking me, is "would I say to my daughter, I advise you to have an abortion or I advise you to not have an abortion," I would not tell her either.

I would tell her how I believe and what I feel. I would listen to her tell me what she believes and feels. We would discuss it. But, in this case, she would have to make the final decision on what to do. And, like I said, she would have been brought up knowing God, and therefore; I would leave the decision to her and God. I would support whatever decision she would make, because she is my child. But, I would never, ever tell my child it is okay to abort a child in cases where she just doesn't want to have a baby.

I have done my best to answer your question, even though it is apples and oranges. The abortions we were speaking of earlier were abortions of choice because of the wants of a woman. We were not discussing abortions being done or not being done to save the life of the mother.

You cannot really equate the two.

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Frank was baiting you MA while sidestepping the question posed to him. Typical.

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It is not apples and oranges...and you demanded a response to a hypothetical earlier which had me making decisions about a fetus I suppposedly fathered.

I had a vasectomy 25 years ago.

I did my best to respond to your hypothetical.

I was trying to understand your response to mine.

I wanted to know how you would advise a daughter...if you had one...if her life was in danger and doctors told you that an abortion would save her life.

That is the trouble with hypotheticals...and they should never be used.

But since I was responding to one of yours...I thought I would pose one to you to see how you responded.

As for Intrepid's hypothetical....

...I would not try to "save" either....because I cannot f******g swim one stroke.

How the hell else can I respond to that hypothetical?

Jesus H. Christ...I even gave him an opportunity to change the goddam hypothetical considering the problems with the first goddam hypothetical.

All said with a huge smile on my tanned face....and love in my heart for both of you poor, deluded fools. Twisted Evil

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank was baiting you MA while sidestepping the question posed to him. Typical.

No...I didn't sidestep the question posed to me...I responded to it. Problem is that I was addressing my response to a moron.

Hey...we've all got our troubles.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

As for Intrepid's hypothetical....

...I would not try to "save" either....because I cannot f******g swim one stroke.

How the hell else can I respond to that hypothetical?

Jesus H. Christ...I even gave him an opportunity to change the goddam hypothetical considering the problems with the first goddam hypothetical.

All said with a huge smile on my tanned face....and love in my heart for both of you poor, deluded fools.

I will leave the hypothetical. Frank, I do not know what abilities, if any, you possess. I now know that you cannot swim but we might be going back and forth all week if I pose another hypothetical in an area that you have not mastered.

I do, however, think you sidestepped because we were supposing that you could swim and had the ability to save one. You refused to answer. Well, you did say that you would not save either.

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Frank,

When working with a hypothetical, you assume things. So, if you're out in a boat, one would assume you could probably swim.

We know you don't have kids. It was a hypothetical question. So what?

All you had to do in the first place was say, "Gee, I just don't know what I would do." At least that's an answer.

Intrepid,

Oh, I am well aware of what Frank was doing. I also see he hasn't said a thing about my response. Other than pathetic, that is.

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You two are among the most stone-headed individuals I've ever encountered anywhere. Together with Neo...you are an unholy trinity.

Truly...I can understand how you think this idiotic, barbaric god is kind, compassionate, and loving...because you three do not have a clue!

Pathetic.

You are an insult to the many theists who actually have posted arguments here in A2K in favor of theism that, while not convincing, at least are not farcical.

But that ain't gonna stop me from lovin' you meeses to pieces.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

When working with a hypothetical, you assume things. So, if you're out in a boat, one would assume you could probably swim.

We know you don't have kids. It was a hypothetical question. So what?

All you had to do in the first place was say, "Gee, I just don't know what I would do." At least that's an answer.

Intrepid,

Oh, I am well aware of what Frank was doing. I also see he hasn't said a thing about my response. Other than pathetic, that is.

Horseshyt, MA.

I have said plenty about your response.

And my initial posting in response was a reasonable, courteous request for you to explain something.

But you...who always are giving lectures in this bullshyt...went nuts instead of simply giving me an explanation.

Read my initial response to your goddam response....and try to open that closed mind of your long enough to see that it is exactly what I say it was.

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Pardon my ignorance, Frank. I thought we were discussing abortion, not theism. I know that you bring it into almost every post, but the killing of a baby is what we are trying to discuss.

To call us an insult is unfair since you speak for theists of which you are not one.

You can love us or hate us, but we are here to stay.

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Frank,

Ok, what I understand is you said yes, it is a tough question but you weren't sure I answer the real question.

Then I attempted to answer again and that is what I do not see a reply to. I am sorry that I did miss that part about your acknowledgement; however, that does not make me a moron, Frank.

Now, can we get off this argument about hypotheticals?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Ok, what I understand is you said yes, it is a tough question but you weren't sure I answer the real question.

Then I attempted to answer again and that is what I do not see a reply to. I am sorry that I did miss that part about your acknowledgement; however, that does not make me a moron, Frank.

Now, can we get off this argument about hypotheticals?

Nope!

Now that you guys have made such a goddam fuss over it, I've decided I'm going to respond directly to Intrepid's hypothetical....and see where he is going with it.

Intrepid wrote:

Frank,
You are out in a boat with your wife and child (I don't know if you have 1 or several children). The boat capsizes and neither your wife or child (The "child can be anywhere up to an including adult age) can swim. You have the ability to save one of them. Which one will you save and why?

I would save my wife....and the hell with my daughter. She has been a royal pain-in-the-ass from the time she was born. My wife wanted an abortion at the time...but back then abortions were not legal and since we could not afford to go to Europe (or Puerto Rico, UGH!) for it...and since she was afraid to entrust the procedure to someone in an alley using a coat hanger....

...she carried the child to term.

But there has never been a kid like her in all the world. In trouble right from kindergarten. Pregnant in 8th grade (she got an abortion). Picked up for stealing hubcaps (of all the goddam things!)...and broke out of the reformatory. We are still working on straightening that out...but I doubt things will ever get better.

If the situation you described ever came up...I would save my wife in an instant over that bitch...and now that I think about it, I hope it does come up, because I would rejoice in finally getting out from under the responsibility for her.

So....where do we go with this now, Intrepid.

I'm not sure why you asked the question...but I have, you will have to admit, tried to give you as hypothetical an answer as possible.

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