ABORTION.......

Eorl wrote:

spendius wrote:
Earl-

There's no complexity.It's simple.Abortion is inhuman full stop.Complexity is a ploy.

What does your mixed up 14 year old have to do with an incubating Mozart.Or a Joe Soap for that matter.

Mozart had several children die soon after birth because he refused them to be allowed milk. They were to have only water, the same as he. So his abortion would have prevented several subsequent deaths of poor innocent full term children, yet I get the impression your are happy he was born?

All kinds of hypocrisy going on there.

Eorl, you don't justify bad behavior, by pointing out other bad behavior.

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PoetSeductress,

I'm telling you lady, ya got class!

http://www.smileys.ws/smls/yahoo/00000040.gif

Eorl,

Why do you keep throwing in things like six year olds, 14 year olds, and children someone had that might have been......if they had been aborted or not? Isn't that confusing the issue just a bit? It is for me, but maybe you can clarify it a bit?

And Eorl, I have come to learn something lately. The only real hypocrite in life is the one that says he never is one.

We are ALL hypocrites at one time or another about one thing or another.

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ABORTION.......
quote:

Momma Angel wrote:

PoetSeductress,

I'm telling you lady, ya got class!

Eorl,

Why do you keep throwing in things like six year olds, 14 year olds, and children someone had that might have been......if they had been aborted or not? Isn't that confusing the issue just a bit? It is for me, but maybe you can clarify it a bit?

And Eorl, I have come to learn something lately. The only real hypocrite in life is the one that says he never is one.

We are ALL hypocrites at one time or another about one thing or another.

Thank you sweetly, MA. I'm glad someone is able to appreciate me..

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Poet, you may not have seen a second response I made on the previous page.....?

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Re: ABORTION.......

Eorl wrote:

PoetSeductress wrote:
Eorl wrote:
PoetSeductress, you make too many assumptions. If the issue was as simple as you say, the solution would be obvious and every country in the world would make abortion illegal just like they do with the killing of a six-year-old.

The fact that you don't understand the complexity doesn't make you right.

Perhaps every "pro-lifer" should be made to watch a mixed up 14 year old kill herself with a coat-hanger

Did I say anything about making it illegal? No, I didn't. Dont' tell me I don't understand the "complexity" of it. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

AND, that coat-hanger bit is an old, broken record. If you use that logic, then why not legalize drugs and have a physician administer enough to get you high, but not so much that you overdose? After all, those poor heroin addicts are killing themselves needlessly. If drugs would just be legalized and controlled, then it would save so many lives! (ha)

You don't legalize something just because someone gets stupid and decides to butcher themselves. So now, you butcher the baby, instead.

In my country we have legal heroin injecting rooms for exactly that reason.

If the issue were simple, why are the more liberal human rights activist types on the pro-choice side while the right, conservative, authoritarian types on the other?

If it were a simple human rights issue, it would be the other way around.

That is insanity. Cuckoo! I am appauled. It is not love to enable and assist someone to hurt themselves with drugs. Drugs is a monster... something that sucks the very life out of a human being, and causes destruction in their lives, and in the lives of their families.

AND YOU THINK IT'S OKAY TO HELP THEM DO IT???>

YOU THINK THIS IS "LOVE"? COMPASSION?? HUMANE??? Give me a break.

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You haven't answered the question. Why are the human rights activists FOR choice if the issue is plain and simple human rights?

On the heroin injecting room....

Quote:

Police chief defends heroin injecting room
December 15, 2003

He said although police would never eradicate the drug trade, crime in the area had been halved since the injecting room opened.

"In the two years since Superintendent Darcy and his team have been working at Kings Cross with the [injecting room], reported crime is down by 50 per cent," he said.

"Every death we can save through the [injecting room], every addict that we can get off the street so it doesn't affect the amenity of residents and people who use those areas, we applaud.

"And we certainly support the injecting centre."

It's about saving lives by methods that work, rather by simply forcing others to behave the way YOU think they should.

You assume because I support the idea that I think drugs are a good thing? Oversimplification...again !!

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Intrepid wrote:

Chumly wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Who is to say what is logical and what is illogical?
If as one can impute from your question, you posit there is no authority for logic, then you would need to explain the illogic of the Pythagorean theorem (for example) of which at the least I contend has relative logic if not absolute logic.

I welcome you to take up the challenge prove that the Pythagorean theorem is illogical at the very least in the relative sense, if not the absolute sense also.

I am not interested in getting into a mathematical debate. My comment was on a much lower level. I was simply referring to Jason's contention that his thoughts are logical and real's are, therefore, not.

You posed the generalized question "Who is to say what is logical and what is illogical?" not me. I simply gave one example. Now you are telling me it was not a generalization at all but a question aimed specifically and only at Jason v. Real.

OK.

Show me where it was argued unsuccessfully that if Jason's premise was by default logical that real's could not by default be logical.

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Momma,

When people say others are confusing or complicating an issue, it often means they would prefer the issue was only discussed within the parameters THEY wish to set, and that is certainly the case here.

To pretend that the medical safety of 14 year pregnant girls has nothing to do with banning abortion is obviously ridiculous.

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ABORTION.......

Eorl wrote:

You haven't answered the question. Why are the human rights activists FOR choice if the issue is plain and simple human rights?

On the heroin injecting room....

Quote:

Police chief defends heroin injecting room
December 15, 2003

He said although police would never eradicate the drug trade, crime in the area had been halved since the injecting room opened.

"In the two years since Superintendent Darcy and his team have been working at Kings Cross with the [injecting room], reported crime is down by 50 per cent," he said.

"Every death we can save through the [injecting room], every addict that we can get off the street so it doesn't affect the amenity of residents and people who use those areas, we applaud.

"And we certainly support the injecting centre."

It's about saving lives by methods that work, rather by simply forcing others to behave the way YOU think they should.

You assume because I support the idea that I think drugs are a good thing? Oversimplification...again !!

I don't buy that at all. It's a cop-out. You will never be able to completely rid the world of any kind of crime or bad element. So does this mean you just give up and legalize everything? That is ridiculous.

When a person does drugs, it takes away their quality of life, and they become slaves to it. It corrodes their home life, their work life, and whatever chance they had at real success and happiness in the world. Their children grow up around it, and their worldview is forever affected by it, in a detrimental way. Then they have children, and pass that outlook onto them, etc. This not only harms society in the present, it is a recipe for disaster for the future of your country. Sure, it might "save" a few lives, but in the long run, it is infecting an entire society with a growing cancer. Many generations from now, your society will be on the verge of veritable destruction. But by then, it will be too late, and they will never understand what happened.

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Eorl,

I can understand it in the context that you just explained.

However, this lesser of two evils (heroin injecting room and abortion) is IMO not the way to change things. It's an "if you can't beat them, then join them attitude."

To help an addict, YOU DON'T GIVE THEM DRUGS! That is called enabling. They will never become productive members of society by giving them drugs. Drugs kill your brain! Drugs kill your body!

It may seem as if it's an answer now, but I would imagine down the road it will be a much bigger problem than one could imagine.

And cleaning up someone's mistake by killing a child isn't helping. You are just enabling someone to repeat the same irresponsible behavior with just a flick of the knife. (I am speaking of abortions for convenience only.)

To solve the problem, you have to fix it before it is a problem. You don't solve it by cleaning up the mess with another mess.

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PoetSeductress,

If I had known you were going to post that, I could have just said DITTO! You said it so much better than I did!

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ABORTION.......
quote:

Momma Angel wrote:

It may seem as if it's an answer now, but I would imagine down the road it will be a much bigger problem than one could imagine.

And cleaning up someone's mistake by killing a child isn't helping. You are just enabling someone to repeat the same irresponsible behavior with just a flick of the knife. (I am speaking of abortions for convenience only.)

To solve the problem, you have to fix it before it is a problem. You don't solve it by cleaning up the mess with another mess.

When I was 19, my sister and I were living with our mother in an apartment complex. There were some boys we had become friends with, whose mother happened to be the friend of our mother. Well, their mother was "cool" in that she knew her teenaged boys smoked pot. It was allowed in their home. But our mother didn't know this. So my sister and I would go over to their place and hang out, and smoke with them, occasionally.

This wasn't going on for very long, when while I was leaving their place one afternoon, and began walking back to our apartment two buildings over, my mother met me as I was walking home, looking for me. My sister happened to be at home at the time, and my sister told her that I was probably over at their place... which was no big deal, since our families were friends. But when my mother saw my eyes, her Irish eyes glared, and with clenched teeth, she said, "What have you been doing?" (She was completely naive about drugs, but she knew something wasn't right.) I told her the truth about it all, and she ordered me back to the apartment.

When we got home, she told me in no uncertain terms, that if I ever went back to that place again, and if I ever did anything like that again, she would personally have me thrown in jail.

And she meant every word of it.

THIS IS LOVE.

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Damn, I wish I had all the answers like you guys.

The don't get given heroin. They are given a safe clean environment and someone is there to call an ambulance when needed. They save lives.

Heroin is not legal here.

The injecting room is run by the CHURCH !!!

Maybe you should compare the crime and drug stats of our two countries before you forecast our doom.

Wake up you guys, try to see the world in a more open way! Why do you think the obvious answer is the only answer for everything? Why can't you see the DAMAGE people like YOU are doing???

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Momma Angel wrote:

To help an addict, YOU DON'T GIVE THEM DRUGS! That is called enabling. They will never become productive members of society by giving them drugs.

A paternally false claim as there are many drug and alcohol users and over users who are and have been very productive indeed.

Hence your views are not demonstrable assertions in real world conditions. That makes your views idealized beliefs as per your perceptions.

Therefore your analogy fails the test vis-a-vis abortion.

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Poet, I'd do the same thing your mother did. Couldn't agree more.

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Eorl wrote:

Why can't you see the DAMAGE people like YOU are doing???

Look to your sig or mine Smile

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Eorl,

Ok, so you don't give them drugs. But you make it safe for them to take drugs?

http://www.smileys.ws/smls/yahoo/00000011.gif

It's illegal but they are given a place to do them?

Sorry, but that's kind of like a mixed message to me, "it's not legal but hey, come here and do it?"

Eorl, I'm not saying I have the answers. Obviously, I don't. Obviously, you don't. If someone had THEE answer then we would not have these problems.

There just seems to be no compromise here at all. You want it your way. I want it my way. I will bend a bit more than you will though. So, bend a little will ya?

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Momma Angel wrote:

If someone had THEE answer then we would not have these problems.

Patently false. An answer does not confirm a solution in the societal sense.

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Eorl wrote:

Damn, I wish I had all the answers like you guys.

The don't get given heroin. They are given a safe clean environment and someone is there to call an ambulance when needed. They save lives.

Heroin is not legal here.

The injecting room is run by the CHURCH !!!

Maybe you should compare the crime and drug stats of our two countries before you forecast our doom.

Wake up you guys, try to see the world in a more open way! Why do you think the obvious answer is the only answer for everything? Why can't you see the DAMAGE people like YOU are doing???

This is exactly what you said:

Eorl wrote:

In my country we have legal heroin injecting rooms for exactly that reason.

This statement leads one to believe that it's legal, unless you state otherwise.

As for your "crime stats", I don't believe them. What kind do crime, specifically? When there is drug abuse involved, there is always thievery to help support their habit, spousal abuse, or child abuse &/or neglect.

America's 2 main problems where this is concerned are:

1) The liberal judges. They are outrageously lenient.
2) Plus the jails are too soft. If incarceration were tough on them, instead of sitting around all day watching cable TV and working out in the weight room, there would be more of a deterrent against crime.

But you see, that's the plan of the far left. They are working to destroy the country from the inside, then blame it on the laws, so that the laws can be done away with or liberally altered to their liking. When all along, it was they who were the culprits in the demise.

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ABORTION.......

Chumly wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
To help an addict, YOU DON'T GIVE THEM DRUGS! That is called enabling. They will never become productive members of society by giving them drugs.
A paternally false claim as there are many drug and alcohol users and over users who are and have been very productive indeed.

Hence your views are not demonstrable assertions in real world conditions. That makes your views idealized beliefs as per your perceptions.

Therefore your analogy fails the test vis-a-vis abortion.

What do you call "productive"? Minimally, to say the least. Sure some will manage to go to work and make a living. But their personal lives revolve around their habit, and their habit almost always comes first before anyone or anything else.

Nine times out of ten, when there is a theft or domestic disturbance, there is illegal drug or alcohol abuse involved. Any police officer will tell you this!

THAT is the REAL world, not the theoretical, and a terrible situation for children to grow up in.

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ABORTION.......

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