ABORTION.......

Intrepid,

Once again, you set me straight.

Child of Light,

Please accept my apology for making any comment on your avatar. Intrepid is correct (IMO). The avatars do not matter.


And Intrepid, I have to admit it, but I never thought about the father killing the (mother) and unborn child and it illegal and yet the mother can do it and it is legal. Sounds like a solution needs to be found here.

It's amazing how the simplest of statements can just make you go, now, why didn't I think of that?

Intrepid,

Once again, you set me straight.

Child of Light,

Please accept my apology for making any comment on your avatar. Intrepid is correct (IMO). The avatars do not matter.


And Intrepid, I have to admit it, but I never thought about the father killing the (mother) and unborn child and it is illegal and yet the mother can do it and it is legal. Sounds like a solution needs to be found here.

It's amazing how the simplest of statements can just make you go, now, why didn't I think of that?

I'll pipe in as a primary non participant, in that I am not interested personally in the fray, but the process of the fray.

Thus, y'all are way off topic. I started it, by very early on giving my background before trying to answer Frank's Topic Question - but I did try to answer that. Some have tried to answer it since, but it gets lost in the explanations everyone feels, quite reasonably to some extent, must be made for background. Still, there is a topic question here not being addressed. To not address that is to have a thread be an amorphous mess...

(heh, as if I am rule maker... no, but there is room for many threads on a2k, and someone asked a question that is rarely being responded to.

Momma,
Regarding your last sentence. I say this with utmost respect. Perhaps you sometimes rush into things a bit too speedily with rebuttals to people without really taking a minute to analyse the situation. A lot of your time is used (and I am guily of this too) refuting and taking personally what some posters write. You use up a lot of energy in combat. I know that you mean right and all, but if you concentrated more on the topic at hand than worrying about why somebody said something in a certain way, you will think of those things. Hmmm, I didn't think that it was THAT simple a statement. :-o Take a breath, do a couple of stretches and carry on. As I said, I am not being critical....only giving my perspective.

Intrepid,

Believe me, no offense taken. I know that you are right. My only excuse (lousy that it is) is that my nerves are a bit frayed right now.

I believe on calling people on their behavior and expect them to do the same of me.

I am in no way a great debater and I do post what I feel, and definitely, sometimes I need to sit back and take stock. I will endeavor to do this with all future posts.

I never have a problem with someone politely pointing out what may need correcting.

And to get back on the subject of the thread. Where is the harm or foul of an abortion if one believes that the soul of the aborted will go to heaven? First, I hope I understand that correctly.

Saying oh well, the soul will go to heaven anyway is no justification whatsoever for having an abortion. The harm and foul is that man is taking God's creation and deciding what to do with it when it doesn't belong to man. And yes, I believe that soul will go to heaven, as it is an innocent soul.

I don't believe that man has the right to choose who lives or dies. I feel that is something best left up to God.

According to the bible, the only known soul that went to heaven immediately was the malafactor that hung on the cross with Jesus. The one that Jesus told "today you will be with me in paradise" Other than that, the bible tells us that Jesus will come back to take home his own. Both from this world and in the world of the dead. Those who are found worthy will have a place in heaven.

I find it interesting that Frank considers an unborn baby to be a fetus is a fetus is a fetus. He has indicated that the fetus is not a child. Why does he think that the fetus has a soul if it is not a human being at that point?

The premise of this thread seems to be that if the aborted child's soul would go to heaven, why does it matter that it was killed. I will ask Frank, if the souls of all the people who you know and love would go to heaven, is it ok to kill them?

The souls of the aborted children would have a much greater chance of going to paradise than those who are responsible for their killing.


edit - Just so nobody calls me on the reference to souls going to heaven immediately. I was quoting the New Testament. I didn't mention Elijah since I was not referring to the Old Testament.

Again, so simply stated. Now, I definitely see what you mean by taking time to react and respond.

[quote="Intrepid"I find it interesting that Frank considers an unborn baby to be a fetus is a fetus is a fetus. He has indicated that the fetus is not a child. Why does he think that the fetus has a soul if it is not a human being at that point?[/quote]

I don't "think" (or guess) that a fetus has a soul. I also don't think or guess that a fetus doesn't have a soul. I posed this question using wording that indicates a question from the Christian perspective.



Try to get away from creating strawmen, Intrepid. Arguing against your creations rather than what is actually being said is punk.



Well...if I were one of the people so certain that they do...that might just be an option to consider. Fact is...some of the Christian nut cases have considered it...and have exercised it. We had five kids killed just a few years back when a woman wanted to insure their entry into heaven. And in a town not too far from where I live...a guy killed his whole family because he thought they were heading toward sin...and he wanted to save their "immortal souls."

But in any case, my point is that many of you Christians seem to want to end a woman's right to control her own body because of the terrible thing abortion does to "a human." But if the end result is eternity in Heaven with your god...what is the big deal.




Okay...so you see my point.





No problem. You might as well have quoted from Stephen King.

It was not offered as a justification. It was offered as a counter to whether or not, from a Christian perspective, aborting the fetus is something horrible or wonderful. If the end result is eternity in Heaven for the soul of the aborted fetus...it just doesn't sound horrible.




How do you know that your god doesn't want this done???????????

Your god takes children all the time.

Why do you insist that a death by this means...is not your god's doing?



Good. Then you agree with me that the soul of what you call a human being is not being harmed...and agree that a strong case can be made that it is being given one of the most desireable free passes possible.





And you also seem to be saying that your god cannot use a human to carry out his wishes for someone to die????

Why do you people want to insist that some deaths are your god's choosing...and some are not?





Well I don't want the laws of this land to be in the hands of people who are superstitious like you.

I want your god left out of the laws of this land.

I want our laws based on what we, the people, think is necessary...not what you suppose your god...or Zeus...cares about.



This is one of the reasons I reject your calls not to call your god what it is...because you people continue to inject your god as some kind of final decider of what humans should and should not be doing....and it is my opinion...(and I can back this up)....your god should not be trusted to decide anything of consequense, because it is not the loving, kind, compassionte god you paint it out to be...but instead, one of the most cruel, vengeful, murderous, tyrannic, petty, barbaric gods ever invented.

(So must posted since I last was here...if I missed anything anyone asked, please ask it again.)

Hi Everyone! Hope you are all well today!

Frank Apisa Wrote:



When I said that the soul going to heaven anyway is no justification whatsoever for having an abortion, I didn't mean that it was what you were suggesting. I could have stated it better but I see that Intrepid did when she asked if the soul was going to heaven anyway does that mean you could kill others?

Frank Apisa Wrote:



How do I know God doesn't want an abortion done? God considers it murder and we are instructed that murder is a sin. It's plain and simple.

I am not sure where you get that god takes children all the time? No, children die all the time but God did not kill them. Perhaps it is because you have heard someone say (at a funeral perhaps) well, God has taken another angel to be with Him? I am just for the sake of this post assuming that's what you may mean. For me, it's much easier for me to have peace about a child's, loved one's, etc., death to know that they will with with God in heaven instead of laying six feet under the ground, their body decomposing, and turning to sludge. I feel that it's more of a comfort to remember that the flesh is not the important thing here. It is the soul. So, I take it to mean their soul will be with God in heaven. (My take, and only my feelings.)

Frank Apisa Wrote:



It is wrong, in any instance, any case, etc., to break the law. The laws Christians believe in mandate that abortion is wrong. So, no, Frank, I cannot agree. The fact that the soul is going to heaven as an innocent soul is wonderful, and right as it should be because that soul is innocent. However, as Intrepid pointed out, what is to stop those (and you have pointed some out here) from sending their loved ones to heaven because it would save them? What's wrong with it is man did not create man. God created man. God is perfect and man is not. God brought you into this world. He had it set up so we could all have paradise and it was not God that changed that. It was man and his free will. If Eve and Adam had never eaten that fruit (or whatever it was) we would still all be in the Garden of Eden. It is man that created the problems in this world. Our free will, our differing opinions, etc.

Frank Apisa Wrote:



Could God use someone else to carry out his wishes for someone else to die? Sure, He could. Does He? I don't think so. Please remember that Christians believe that once Jesus Christ entered into the picture things were different. God no longer audibly spoke to the people. God no longer visibly showed Himself (as in the burning bush, etc.) to the people. His son became our intercessory. And surely, you cannot think that, let's say Gary Ridgeway, The Green River Killer, was carrying out God's will and trying to rid the world of prostitutes? No. Gary Ridgeway had a free will and he exercised it.

I think maybe you are taking "It's God's will a bit too literally. What I believe is that something good can come from any given situation. Gary Ridgeway killed 49 woman. Well, maybe woman 50 got to thinking that if maybe she wasn't exercising her free will to do what she was doing, she might not have been number 50, so she changes her life and now is trying to do what is right. It is God's will that we do what is right. We make the choice to exercise our free will to do what is right or what is wrong. It's like with your parents, their will is you grow up to be a good person. Well, they teach you in their ways and show you what to do, but the ultimate choice is yours.

Frank Apisa Wrote:



I get that Frank. Boy, do I get that. But, I am afraid it is impossible. There will always be those that feel as you do and there will always be those that feel as I do. I think the most we can hope for is to find a meeting ground in the middle of the spectrum. I don't want God left out, no. When our soldiers take their oath, do they not say, ...to serve God and Country? Our currency has "In God We Trust" printed on it. Our pledge of Allegiance says ....One Nation Under God. God was in our political system from day one.

And you have every right to feel the way you do. I just think if that is the way you feel then perhaps you should channel your energies at amending the laws? Just go through the system. Sometimes, I feel you are more inclined toward the "bombing abortion clinics" method than you are "lobbying to change the law" method.

Frank Apisa Wrote:



I am not going to tell you that God did not tell his followers to go out in the far country and get rid of that bunch of people. Yes, that's what it says. But, you always leave out the why. He did it because that bunch of people was rebellious against God and He had given them chances to change and they did not. God was the only law then. He created Man, the laws, and the punishment. Man has free will. He made the choice. It's very hard to explain to someone why God is not the (seemingly, and I say that because of His reason for doing it) barbaric God when I believe in His Son, Jesus Christ. Some of us have tried to explain this but we have not done so to your satisfaction, so will just have to agree to disagree here.

Momma Angel?

Has anyone told you today how simply wonderful you are? You are such an inspiration!

I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I'm so glad you found this forum.

Hugs

(That's me blushing!)

What a nice thing to say. Brooke, I am just one that is very determined to do something to change the bad press Christians are getting. We are all too often focused on problems and not solutions. I know we can do it! I know we can!

Thank you so kindly for what you said. You made my heart smile!

And right back at ya' girl! (Where did you get that hug emoticon?)

MommaAngel wrote:


Just so there is no confusion, Momma. I am a man.
:-)

Perhaps you should go back to your Shatner avatar?

Well, seems to be today is my day for the red face! Sorry about that guy!

Frank Apisa Wrote:



Um, Frank. What about this?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

(bolded for emphasis only)

Sound familiar? Do you repute this?

The one with the cigar? Nah, I stole the cigar from you and I have now repented for that sin.

Naaah. This time I'll give you one of my dog rockets.

You two are making me laugh!

Intredpid, the man! Again, thinking of something so simple and we all missed it!

I am curious as to Frank's response.