ABORTION.......

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That is a pretty phony avatar you have there, Child. I'd say even deceptive. I wonder if you carry such deception into the rest of your dealings here.

Very unnecessary

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What percent of the women in the United States have "multiple abortions?" What percetage would be okay with you...where you wouldn't think it is ridiculous?

The percentage of women having multiple abortions is probably low, but the majority of abortions are done by repeat offenders.

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Do you know that last part for a fact...or is this just a personal bais peeking through?

That is pure fact Apisa, check it if you want. That is why abortion is so heavily opposed. Because most abortions are being had by hungover sluts that can't handle the consequences of their actions. I say let them get drunk and have as much sex as they want. But their right do that ends where that babies life begins.

Abortion shouldn't be completely outlawed, but reform is undoubtedly needed.

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I agree with you...although I am sure we differ about what we consider to be the joke.

Again, very unnecessary.

Apisa, how do you feel about partial birth abortion?

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Frank,

Ooops! I do apologize. Give me some time here and I will recover from my residual nerve endings sticking out. Lash, I have to agree with Frank. I can't tell him it's not right for him to say you are wrong and let you say someone else is right.

So, I am going to take it that Lash meant she agreed in that statement! Frank's trying to compromise with me a bit here so I have got to be fair. So Frank, I apologize. I was wrong.

I am prepared to acknowledge that the law, as it is written, states that the fetus is a fetus and not a living human being. However, I do not agree with that assessment.

And I didn't really mean it to be hypothetical. I am just trying to get a handle on you a bit I guess. I don't know if it is the law that you are championing here or not. I guess I should have just asked for some clarification.

Shazz,

Boy, you can come up with some questions. I do not suport the use of birth control solely because it might alleviate the need for an abortion. I support the use of birth control because it alleviates the unwanted pregnancies, whether it be because a child is not convenient, affordable, etc. I do not know how to answer the accept that conception is His will question. I have no idea in this world how God views birth control. I know what some churches believe. I just don't know on this one.

Now, the different levels of sin? Oh boy, this is a tricky one. I do believe that telling a lie and committing premeditated murder are two sides of the spectrum. To me, it's worse to murder a man than it is to tell a lie. But, how does God view sin? In my belief, God views sin as sin. Do I think He considers sin in different levels? Here again, I just don't know the answer to that. He points out in the bible about idolators, murders, whoremongers, etc., but there are things like telling a lie, etc., that are not spelled out in the same detail. So, I don't know.

And Child of Light,

I am afraid I have to agree with Frank on that avatar there. It is a bit contradictory to your userid.

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COL,

I love someone to make a statement with their avatar.

You explained this months ago (if I remember) and I think it's cool.

MA,

No problem. I enjoy you, whether you agree with me or not. I change avatars frequently, depending on my mood. Can you tell how I'm feeling now...?

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abortion
>>>Also, the mother has no right to kill the child in her womb, because the child isn't her creation, but God's. She may be its host, but it certainly doesn't mean that she is entitled to killing it at her whim.
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(I like that)

Perhaps it has to do with the sanctity of human life. Can anyone say that it is all right to make an exception to kill someone without the possiblity of having that turned on themselves. If it is all right to kill an unborn child today then what is to keep it from being all right to kill the elderly tomorrow or black people or women or people with red hair?

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>>>A fetus is a fetus....a child is a child. A fetus becomes a child...when it becomes a child...when it is born.
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Abortion became legal by semantics. If we call it aborting fetuses instead killing babies then that makes it not so bad.
If a fetus is not a person then please look around and point out one person who at one time was not a fetus. Life begins at conception. Women who haven't conceived aren't seeking abortions because they know they don't have a child growing inside of them. Once a child is conceived that child continues to grow unless it dies of natural causes or someone kills it (inside or outside of the womb). A person goes through differing stages of life.

I don't like abortion and I will vote against it, but until that opinion is held and supported by other I'm not so sure it would do any good to demand that they do.

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I'm a man, I'd rather have fine fine Jenny McCarthy as an avatar than some random picture of a man. And even if I were using the avatar in a deceptive way, it in no ways devalues my opinion.

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True, true. Just stating our opinons and clearing that up. Now, I know you are a man and can address you as one.

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Laash,

LOL. I think I know the feeling girl! I appreciate you understood where I was coming from. Hey, do you know I am going to get PM rights around here?

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auroreII wrote:

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If it is all right to kill an unborn child today then what is to keep it from being all right to kill the elderly tomorrow or black people or women or people with red hair?

Or how about convicted murderers? Or someone who cuts you off in traffic? Or the person talking loudly during the movie?

Is it all right to kill these people? Maybe. No. No.

What decides what is acceptable or not? Our laws. Yes, cultural norms do play a part of this, but ultimately we rely on our government to provide some cohesion to our diverse nation. (I am speaking as an American, but I feel this is applicable to other nations) When one chooses to be a member of a democratic society, one has to accept the possibility that they might be in the minority legally. In this case, you are. If you find abortion morally abhorrent, you can abstain from having the procedure. You can counsel your friends to do likewise. You can write your government and even picket clinics. You can petition for a legislative change. This is your right, and you should exercise it if you wish.

But to imply that the legality of abortion is some kind of indicator that our democracy will soon seek the death of anyone who reads Harry Potter or muslims or any other arbitrary feature, is not only faulty reasoning, but, I feel, intentionally simplistic. The one is about autonomy and the other is about, what exactly? If you could explain why you feel the two are related, then your point might be clearer to me. Moreover, just because I was a fetus at one point in time is immaterial. When I was a fetus, my mother chose to bring me to term. She chose to do this. I am pro-choice, and I feel that it is not my right to tell a woman they must carry a fetus to term simply because she is biologically predisposed to do so.

Furthermore, I feel that legal abortion is here to stay. Whether or not you agree with the practice, it is hard to argue that keeping abortions safe for women is preferable to the dangerous practices of the past.

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Shazzer,

If I may be as so bold as to assume what AuriellIII meant.

Let's see if I can explain it like this.

The laws a long time ago were very different than they are today. They change. People change. People change the laws. What was once totally unacceptable is now acceptable in today's society. So, I feel AuriellIII is completely within the scope of reason here.

What if someday we decide that there are too many elderly people on this planet and hey, you should only live so many years? Think of how unacceptable abortion was years and years ago.

Will the above happen? Maybe, maybe not. But, I do understand what AuriellIII is saying. I just may have a different way of saying it.

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Shazzer wrote:

Does anyone have a link to reliable data concerning the frequency of multiple abortions? Or any advice on where I can investigate stats such as these? Cheers.

Centre for Disease Control is one of the best places for stats on anything medical in the U.S.

here's one that you may find helpful

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

From the introduction:

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Results: A total of 857,475 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2000 from 49 reporting areas, representing a 0.5% decrease from the 861,789 legal induced abortions reported by 48 reporting areas for 1999 and a 1.3% decrease for the same 48 reporting areas that reported in 1999. The abortion ratio, defined as the number of abortions per 1,000 live births, was 246 in 2000 (for the same 48 reporting areas as 1999), compared with 256 reported for 1999. This represents a 3.8% decline in the abortion ratio. The abortion rate (for the same 48 reporting areas as 1999) was 16 per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years for 2000. This was also a 3.8% decrease from the rate reported for procedures performed during 1997--1999 for the same 48 reporting areas.

The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women aged <25 years (52%), women who were white (57%), and unmarried women (81%). Fifty-eight percent of all abortions for which gestational age was reported were performed at <8 weeks of gestation, and 88% were performed before 13 weeks. From 1992 (when detailed data regarding early abortions were first collected) through 2000, steady increases have occurred in the percentage of abortions performed at <6 weeks of gestation. Few abortions were performed after 15 weeks of gestation; 4.3% were obtained at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% were obtained at >21 weeks. A total of 31 reporting areas submitted data stating that they performed medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 1.0% of all reported procedures from the 42 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure.

In 1998 and 1999 (the most recent years for which data are available), 14 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion. Ten of these deaths occurred in 1998 and four occurred in 1999; no deaths were associated with known illegal abortion.

Interpretation: From 1990 through 1997, the number of legal induced abortions gradually declined. In 1998 and 1999, the number of abortions continued to decrease when comparing the same 48 reporting areas. In 2000, even with one additional reporting state, the number of abortions declined slightly. In 1998 and 1999, as in previous years, deaths related to legal induced abortions occurred rarely (<1 death per 100,000 abortions).

and the most recent report, from November 2004, about the 2001 numbers (found it later)
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm

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Finding reliable statistics on the rate of multiple abortions is proving a bit difficult - I can find lots of opinion papers on the topic, but none (so far) are leading back to a reliable source of numbers (without attached opinions).

The CDC numbers do show that most women having abortions have already had one or more live births.

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abortion
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>>>What decides what is acceptable or not? Our laws.
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Abortion is now legal. So because the law decides it is acceptable that makes it okay?

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>>>it is hard to argue that keeping abortions safe for women is preferable to the dangerous practices of the past.
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"dangerous practices of the past"- More semantics. They were "illegal" abortions. Part of the reason they were illegal is because they were unsafe. Abortions were unacceptable because the law had deemed that abortions were wrong, but human nature being what it is .... Wasn't the law okay then? Or is it only okay when it favors the person's viewpoint?
Please don't answer that, just think about it. Are you confusing compassion with behavior? Is abortion wrong?
From a biblical viewpoint the bible says we have forgiveness of sin, but that doesn't give us license to sin.
As I said
I don't like abortion and I will vote against it, but until that opinion is held and supported by others I'm not so sure it would do any good to demand that they do.

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Lash,

Is there any way I can get in touch with you?

Momma

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I'll PM my e-mail addy.

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Cool! Thanx!

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Child of the Light wrote:

Apisa, how do you feel about partial birth abortion?

Now, I did read on a website that PBA are used only instances where the baby is either dead, sure to die, or could cause the mother to die.

Since reading that I've been trying to find information to validate this. Could someone please help?

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Re: abortion

auroreII wrote:

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>>>What decides what is acceptable or not? Our laws.
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Abortion is now legal. So because the law decides it is acceptable that makes it okay?

I would have to say YES, it is okay.

You can disagree with the law and try to change it, but until it is changed it is OKAY to OBEY the law.

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Maporche,

Being a law does not make it acceptable. That merely means you aren't going to get thrown in jail for it.

A lot of our laws are unacceptable to me. But, doesn't mean I have to get an abortion. The law provides that I can. It does not provide that it is acceptable.

And yes, the laws are made by man. That's why we vote. So, if you don't vote, don't complain I always say.

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maporsche wrote:

Child of the Light wrote:

Apisa, how do you feel about partial birth abortion?

Now, I did read on a website that PBA are used only instances where the baby is either dead, sure to die, or could cause the mother to die.

Since reading that I've been trying to find information to validate this. Could someone please help?

go to the CDC site, maporsche. lots of good raw stats there. the most interesting <to me> was that the greatest increase was in abortions happening at the less than 6 week mark. the 21 wk+ rate seems to have remained stable at about 1.4% of the total number of abortions for some years.

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I had to do a fair bit of reading to catch up here. I have just made a few observations, in no particular order.

1 - Multiple abortions? Well, we do know that our friend Frank was responsible for at least 2 abortions. Apparently, different "mothers".

2 - Why would anyone be concerned with somebody's avatar? Are we now being judged on our avatar's. Does it matter if it is a man or woman making a particular point? Could you not determine, as I did, (of no consequence however) that COL may be a man by the posts and comments? It does not matter people.

3 - A question was asked regarding degrees of sin. Some feel that a sin is a sin and the "degree" of sin is irrelevant. If a mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her starving child and a man commits murder in the stealing of money to live a life of luxury...are they both sins? Yes, of course they are. Are they equal sins? Of course not. The one was done out of need for the survival of the child and only a loaf of bread was taken...This was not done out of greed. The murderous thief, on the other hand, did the deed out of greed and complete lack of thought for the life of another. There is also the degree of remorse and repentance for the sin. We are taught that the smallest sin must be forgiven and the biggest sin CAN be forgiven. It is up to the sinner which direction this could take.

4 - Regarding contraception and the morning after pill. Both prevent the conception of a child..not the abortion of it (that would require that conception was guaranteed by the act). Is the prevention of conception every occurring the same as killing the child (err, sorry... fetus) sometime prior to his/her (I refuse to say it) birth? Someone mentioned something about if the baby had a brain at a certain point or some such. A baby can be born a couple months premature and we know that the child has a brain and has had for some time.

5 - I know of cases where the mother was going to have an abortion and changed their mind before going through with it. The children that these mother's bore turned out to be intelligent, wonderful, loving members of society. They have bright futures that will, no doubt, add to the lives of people in their future. This could have been snuffed out. I know, there are many people that have died at early ages in wars and other horrible ways. They too could have lived to have full and productive lives as well. The difference is that the children I speak of and the others had the opportunity to be born and at least have a chance.

6 - I have a hard time understanding a law that says a man is guilty of killing his wife and unborn child, but a mother that aborts is entirely within the law.

7 - Some of us who try to live a Christian life (don't let the veins bulge out of your neck, Frank) think that it is wrong to abort a fetus, child, tiny person or whatever label you want to use. We also think it is wrong to follow laws that are against the teachings of Jesus Christ. We must accept the laws of man, but we still follow the laws of our Lord. I do not agree with violence as a means to get the point across. The burning of clinics and all of that other garbage is not what is expected of a Christian. Tolerance is one of the things that we are taught and, as hard as it may be sometimes, tolerance is what we must show. A bad law may not be acceptable to us, but it is still a law. Our lawmakers may not make the decisions that we want them to make, but the laws must still be abided by. Peaceful means to changing laws is the only answer.

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ABORTION.......

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