ABORTION.......

If a guy kicks his girlfriend in the stomach causing her to miscarry, he has killed her baby. He will be convicted of murder.

One of those guys is going to bring suit. The doctor and the guy are doing the same thing. One gets paid--one gets jail. Reconcile that...?

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One is legal...one isn't!

You really couldn't figure that out for yourself?

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Sorry if this is off-topic. I wanted to talk a bit more about the morning after pill and my previous post, if that is agreeable.

I wrote 'God-sanctioned life' earlier because of the common anti-abortion argument that life begins at conception and that all life is God's will; and that abortion is therefore amoral. My question is: why is it all right to circumvent God's will prior to conception, but not afterwards? Both men and women use various methods of birth control prior to intercourse, and women can take the morning-after pill within the next 72 hours to prevent conception. I am unaware of any church, other than the Roman Catholic Church, that finds these methods disagreeable in the prevention of unwanted pregnancies and disease. When does our interference mutate from responsible behavior to sin?

And before anyone makes any assumptions about me: I am a pro-choice agnostic who believes that a fetus is a fetus is a fetus, and what a woman does with her body is entirely up to her.

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Frank,

Not long ago in a post you told me to show you where you say you are right and someone else is wrong. Dang it! You just did it.

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:

No she's not. But she is wrong. So you almost got it right.

And man made the laws. Man has said that it is a fetus and not a child. Well, if enough people would get out there and lobby to change that it could be changed. So Frank, if the law stated that the fetus was a living thing, child, human being, etc., would you then argue that it is or would you still assert that it is not?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

And...if you objections to abortion have anything to do with your religious beliefs...tell me what you suppose happens to the soul of this fetus that you suppose to be a complete human?

Frank Apisa, I am a male atheist. I do not believe in God. God plays no role in my abortion stance. I just think it is ridiculous that so many women have multiple abortions. Are you aware that rape and mother's life in danger make up less than 1 percent of abortion cases? The majority of abortions are carried out because of irresponsibility. It's a joke.

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Shazzer,

I think I replied to this somewhere but I'm not sure. It is a very good question. I can only tell you for myself, that as a Christian that does not believe in abortion, that the only reason I agree with birth control or the morning after pill is because it offers a compromise in my opinion. It is sort of like the lesser of two evils for me.

I realize that many religions, faiths, etc., may not condone that thinking, but it is strictly how I feel about it.

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I think there is a bigger problem here than whats right or wrong about abortion, the question is why is there a need for so many aborted babies.

Its pointless to argue what we believe, our arguements do nothing but make us all look foolish- we cant change what anyone else thinks. People have their own wills, its not our place to change minds.

What I do know is that after a point an unborn child can feel and respond to stimuli. While even a star fish can repond in this way, the thought of a 21 week old fetus grabbing at the needle stuck in its skin is enough to move me. These arent that story, but theyre quick links to one in utero surgery i found.

http://www.fetal-surgery.com/fs-pics.htm, http://childrensproject.co.uk/fetalHand.asp

But like I said, the bigger problem is why is there such a need for aborted babies. Its well understood that people are no longer able to control themselves in our world today as well as in previous generations, this is our own fault. its understandable, we teach our 7 year olds about sex in school, what do we expect. The point I am getting at is that all the sex education out there is about using protection, and for some reason that doesnt happen.

I can understand rape... a woman has no control over that.

It is still sad that we have so little regret or feeling for ending life, in whatever form it may be, or whatever stage it may be. But this is no suprise to me. Mark my words, there are starting points to all things, what is considered useless and acceptable to dispose of will soon grow into other areas. Case in point, terri schiavo. Give it a few years, and eventually we will discard of more than unwanted vegitables and fetus'.

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Shazzer wrote:

Sorry if this is off-topic. I wanted to talk a bit more about the morning after pill and my previous post, if that is agreeable.

I wrote 'God-sanctioned life' earlier because of the common anti-abortion argument that life begins at conception and that all life is God's will; and that abortion is therefore amoral. My question is: why is it all right to circumvent God's will prior to conception, but not afterwards? Both men and women use various methods of birth control prior to intercourse, and women can take the morning-after pill within the next 72 hours to prevent conception. I am unaware of any church, other than the Roman Catholic Church, that finds these methods disagreeable in the prevention of unwanted pregnancies and disease. When does our interference mutate from responsible behavior to sin?

And before anyone makes any assumptions about me: I am a pro-choice agnostic who believes that a fetus is a fetus is a fetus, and what a woman does with her body is entirely up to her.

The only comment I will make on this Shaz...is that if there is a God...why is anyone limiting the way the god can take (what they refer to as) a human life by having it aborted while still a fetus?

TO ANY RELIGIOUS PERSON IN THIS THREAD:

How do you know your god doesn't want this "human" dead at this particular instant...for whatever reason?

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My thoughts:

I would consider whether or not the fetus has a brain. If it does not have a brain, thus no cognitive existence, then one could abort it if the person carrying the child can not afford to take care of the baby if it were made, and if the possible child and the person carrying the child would suffer tremendously socially and physically.

If the fetus developed a brain already, then a person is born, and abortion should not be an option.

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Amosunknown,

Oh, I like the way you think. Looking for the solution! Please, please, please, join us in the Are You Part of the Problem or Part of the Solution Thread!

I agree with you. We need to do some solution finding and not blaming, and criticizing!

Please join that thread!

Ray,

Now, that is one good thought provoking statement. I'd have to say, even though I believe life begins at conception, I could probably live with the idea of abortion more easily if this stipulation was met.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Not long ago in a post you told me to show you where you say you are right and someone else is wrong. Dang it! You just did it.

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:
No she's not. But she is wrong. So you almost got it right.

Actually, I asked you to quote whenever I say that...so that we could look at the quote in context...and discuss it.

So let's do that.

Lash came into this discussion and said:

You're right COL.

The life of the unborn doesn't switch on and off due to whether it is wanted or not.

Which is why abortion is murder. State sanctioned--yes. Legal--yes. But, it's time people admit it. [/quote]

And I responded..."No she's not. But she is wrong. So you almost got it right. "

You seem to have no problem understanding that Lash gave an opinion...so you should have no problem understanding that I gave an opinion.

Lash...specifically said that COL was right...and I specifically said that she was wrong.

Am I not allowed to do that?

If this is what you have a problem with, MA....you better deal with it...because this forum is set up to have exactly those kinds of encounters.

Quote:

And man made the laws. Man has said that it is a fetus and not a child. Well, if enough people would get out there and lobby to change that it could be changed. So Frank, if the law stated that the fetus was a living thing, child, human being, etc., would you then argue that it is or would you still assert that it is not?

Boy...you are just filled with hypotheticals, aren't you, MA.

Let me turn the tables on you.

Since the law right now states that the fetus is a fetus...and not a living human being...ARE YOU PREPARED TO acknowledge that it is?

This is not even a hypothetical.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

One is legal...one isn't!

You really couldn't figure that out for yourself?

Everyone knows which is legal.

Why is the same act treated so differently? I is the same act.

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Child of the Light wrote:

Frank Apisa, I am a male atheist. I do not believe in God. God plays no role in my abortion stance. I just think it is ridiculous that so many women have multiple abortions. Are you aware that rape and mother's life in danger make up less than 1 percent of abortion cases? The majority of abortions are carried out because of irresponsibility. It's a joke.

Reread this Apisa

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Would you say that you support the use of birth control solely because it might alleviate the need for an abortion? If so, in the case of married couples, do you believe that they should use contraceptives if they choose or that because they are married and the aim of sex is to produce a child of God within a marriage, they should accept that conception is His will and refrain from contraceptives entirely? How is this not a sin as well?

On a side note, do you believe there are different levels of sin?

Quote:

I think I replied to this somewhere but I'm not sure.

I asked this question again only because I didn't feel it was answered previously. I wanted to know why you felt this way, not just what you felt.

Thanks.

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Child of the Light wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

And...if you objections to abortion have anything to do with your religious beliefs...tell me what you suppose happens to the soul of this fetus that you suppose to be a complete human?

Frank Apisa, I am a male atheist.

Thank you for that information.

That is a pretty phony avatar you have there, Child. I'd say even deceptive. I wonder if you carry such deception into the rest of your dealings here.

By the way...I think the atheistic position vis-a-vis the Ultimate REALITY...is every bit as silly as the theistic one.

Quote:

I do not believe in God. God plays no role in my abortion stance.

That is interesting.

Quote:

I just think it is ridiculous that so many women have multiple abortions.

What percent of the women in the United States have "multiple abortions?" What percetage would be okay with you...where you wouldn't think it is ridiculous?

Quote:

Are you aware that rape and mother's life in danger make up less than 1 percent of abortion cases? The majority of abortions are carried out because of irresponsibility.

Do you know that last part for a fact...or is this just a personal bais peeking through?

And are you saying that because a woman is "irresponsible"....she no longer has control over her body?

You wouldn't mind fleshing that out a bit, would you?

Are you advocating making abortion illegal....or what?

Quote:

It's a joke.

I agree with you...although I am sure we differ about what we consider to be the joke.

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Lash wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
One is legal...one isn't!

You really couldn't figure that out for yourself?

Everyone knows which is legal.

Why is the same act treated so differently? I is the same act.

It is NOT the same act.

Try not to overstate your case. Hyperbole destroys even good arguments...and this is not a particularly good one.

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Child of the Light wrote:

Child of the Light wrote:

Frank Apisa, I am a male atheist. I do not believe in God. God plays no role in my abortion stance. I just think it is ridiculous that so many women have multiple abortions. Are you aware that rape and mother's life in danger make up less than 1 percent of abortion cases? The majority of abortions are carried out because of irresponsibility. It's a joke.

Reread this Apisa

Okay...I re-read it. Now what? Are you going to answer my questions...or just ask me to re-read that pargraph again?

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Who you talking to, Shaz?

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Does anyone have a link to reliable data concerning the frequency of multiple abortions? Or any advice on where I can investigate stats such as these? Cheers.

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I was talking with MA, but while I've got your attention:

Quote:

if there is a God...why is anyone limiting the way the god can take (what they refer to as) a human life by having it aborted while still a fetus?

Could you explain this a bit further to me? I'm not quite sure I follow that anyone is limiting the way their God can take a life by having it aborted.

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ABORTION.......

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