ABORTION.......

Frank,

You misunderstand one thing. I am not trying to be in control of the UPN here. I set up a scenario where everyone who joins has the right to lobby to change the laws. I have no idea how they will turn out and neither do you.

And, you have your opinion of what is decent, respectful, etc., and so do I.

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Frank,

I would love to appreciate the fact that you are decent, moral, kind, etc. I have seen glimpses of it in your posts; however, in most of them you haven't been that way to me and others (and yes, unfortunately, the Christians and believers.)

I set up the scenarior of the UPN so that everyone that joins has the right to amend, change, etc., the laws. No one person is in charge. No president, no king, no dictator, period.

Just three simple rules to start with. If you don't like them, lobby to change or amend them. But, I would suggest that the more that you bash them, the harder it is for others to see your point. You have a valid point! I don't disagree with that! But, can't you lobby to amend or change the law without making others feel like morons or idiots?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

But I am...even in the persona you deal with here in the forum...as nice, respectful, moral and decent as anyone else I know...or know of.

You simply cannot appreciate that.

Yet!

We'll work on this problem together.

But for right now...I am off to catch a train to NYC. I'm gonna hook up with a couple of A2Kers and have a delightful time.

Hope you have a good rest of the day, MA.

I think you're nice, Frank. Now don't get ticked off, OK? Laughing

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Frank, have you ever read Daniel Quinn? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what he has to say. He has an excellent book, Ishmael. Unfortunately, it isn't available free on-line yet.
I handed on my copy of Ishmael to a cousin of mine, who happens to be very intelligent. He is also disguisted by Christianity, and has A LOT of difficulty softing his language in regards to how he feels about it. He works for IBM, is scientifically minded, and he loved this book. Perhaps you will enjoy it too.

cheers

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Hello all,

Well, it's after 2am and this thread has kept me up. Quite a lot to think about in the wee hours. Got to say that I didn't have the problem with Frank that others did, but that's not really here nor there. . . I'll try to get back towards the topic of this discussion with a question about the morning after pill: Could MA (I mention you because I thought I read upthread that you were a supporter) or another like-minded individual please explain how this form of human intervention is permissable if, as with abortion, it prevents a God-sanctioned life?

Thanks heaps.

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Shazzer,

I didn't say it was permissible. It probably isn't concerning religion, even in my belief system. What I think I said (or at least meant) is I think it is a much better solution than abortion. I just think it is a much kinder, gentler way. A lesser of two evils I guess you could say.

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flushd wrote:

Frank, have you ever read Daniel Quinn? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what he has to say. He has an excellent book, Ishmael. Unfortunately, it isn't available free on-line yet.
I handed on my copy of Ishmael to a cousin of mine, who happens to be very intelligent. He is also disguisted by Christianity, and has A LOT of difficulty softing his language in regards to how he feels about it. He works for IBM, is scientifically minded, and he loved this book. Perhaps you will enjoy it too.

cheers

I haven't read him...but I appreciate the heads-up. I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

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Shazzer wrote:

Could MA (I mention you because I thought I read upthread that you were a supporter) or another like-minded individual please explain how this form of human intervention is permissable if, as with abortion, it prevents a God-sanctioned life? Thanks heaps.

Considering all the assumptions you are making...perhaps it is a "god-sanctioned" death?

And before you get exercised about that question...or consider it to be wise-assed...there is a question you might consider: Are there any deaths that are not "god sanctioned?"

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Considering all the assumptions you are making...perhaps it is a "god-sanctioned" death?

That's a good point Frank. Something to think about. Why would God take the life of an innocent baby?

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Bella Dea wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Considering all the assumptions you are making...perhaps it is a "god-sanctioned" death?

That's a good point Frank. Something to think about. Why would God take the life of an innocent baby?

God is not taking the life. The person who is causing the abortion is taking the life.

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Intrepid wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

Considering all the assumptions you are making...perhaps it is a "god-sanctioned" death?

That's a good point Frank. Something to think about. Why would God take the life of an innocent baby?

God is not taking the life. The person who is causing the abortion is taking the life.

But the abortion might not have happened unless God wanted the woman to make that decision. I think that is what Frank is getting at. The whole "when it's your time to go, it's your time to go".

How would you explain SIDS?

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Bella wrote:

Quote:

But the abortion might not have happened unless God wanted the woman to make that decision

You are forgetting one small point here. God gave man his own free will. We have to accept some responsibility for ourselves. We can't just blame God for everything that we do. That is like the phrase "The devil made me do it" The devil may try to influence everything we do, but we still have our own will to decide our direction.

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I guess I just believe that we all have a destination we were meant to end up at and only a few paths to choose from and no matter what we choose we are either good people or bad people from the start. And I don't believe in "the devil". Hell is here on earth, or haven't you noticed?

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How very Presbyterian of you . . .

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Intrepid wrote:

Bella wrote:

Quote:
But the abortion might not have happened unless God wanted the woman to make that decision

You are forgetting one small point here. God gave man his own free will. We have to accept some responsibility for ourselves. We can't just blame God for everything that we do. That is like the phrase "The devil made me do it" The devil may try to influence everything we do, but we still have our own will to decide our direction.

I don't think anyone is forgetting any small points here...except perhaps those of you arguing on the anti-choice side of the issue.

No need to do any blaming...of your god or anyone else. The bottom line is that there may be nothing happening that requires "blame" to be assessed.

Your god calls babies and children to his presence in many, many ways. Since your god that in ways that are so savage they make the obortion thing look positively benign...why are you so sure your god is not the instrumental cause of the abortion?

And, since so many of you folks are absolutely positive that there are whole living human beings involved (presumably with souls)...and since the souls of these whole living human beings immediately go to Heaven and begin an eternity of bliss with your god...

...how can you suggest something terrible...rather than wonderful...is happening to them?

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Setanta wrote:

How very Presbyterian of you . . .

I actually got married in a Presbyterian church, although I am not Presbyterian.

Again, I am not affiliated with any organized religion but thanks for noticing I harbor a belief that might coincidental go with he beliefs of a denomination.

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What about miscarriages? Just curious about that...why would God kill a baby? Or SIDS?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Bella wrote:

Quote:
But the abortion might not have happened unless God wanted the woman to make that decision

You are forgetting one small point here. God gave man his own free will. We have to accept some responsibility for ourselves. We can't just blame God for everything that we do. That is like the phrase "The devil made me do it" The devil may try to influence everything we do, but we still have our own will to decide our direction.

I don't think anyone is forgetting any small points here...except perhaps those of you arguing on the anti-choice side of the issue.

No need to do any blaming...of your god or anyone else. The bottom line is that there may be nothing happening that requires "blame" to be assessed.

Your god calls babies and children to his presence in many, many ways. Since your god that in ways that are so savage they make the obortion (sic) thing look positively benign...why are you so sure your god is not the instrumental cause of the abortion?

And, since so many of you folks are absolutely positive that there are whole living human beings involved (presumably with souls)...and since the souls of these whole living human beings immediately go to Heaven and begin an eternity of bliss with your god...

...how can you suggest something terrible...rather than wonderful...is happening to them?

Here again, Frank, you use a misinterpretation of the bible to advance your proposition. Where in the bible does it say God calls babies to heaven? Perhaps the worshipers of Moloch had it right, eh?

You are so enamored with your spurious defense of the 'anti-life' argument, you fail to realize your frequent use of the straw man.

Or course, you could be right in spite of your lack of a coherent argument; but I don't think so.

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neologist wrote:

Here again, Frank, you use a misinterpretation of the bible to advance your proposition. Where in the bible does it say God calls babies to heaven?[/quote]

Try to do a bit of thinking, Neo. It won't ruin your brain.

I did not say....nor did I infer that the Bible says God calls babies to HEaven. I said "you people"...meaning most Christians...do.

If you need any confirmation of this...just go to any funeral service for a child or baby...and you will hear a preacher or priest mention this very thing a half dozen times.

If you want to say that all of the priest and ministers who mention this are wrong because you have that silly beleif of your own about souls...do so. But don't try to pin the absurdities of your religion on me.

This accusation was another straw man in a long line of straw men.

Quote:

You are so enamored with your spurious defense of the 'anti-life' argument, you fail to realize your frequent use of the straw man.

I do not use strawmen ever...and coming from a guy like you who does frequently, comments of this sort are laughable.

Quote:

Or course, you could be right in spite of your lack of a coherent argument; but I don't think so.

I'd sooner take a lesson in weight management from Rush Limbaugh than a lesson in coherent arguing from you, Neo.

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Are you saying that christianity doesn't represent the bible?

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