Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 10:29 pm
Ossobuco,

Thank you for that. I can compromise. Actually, in this thread, Frank was a little more tolerant than in some of the others.

Don't want a badge, just want a good discussion with no meanness.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 10:39 pm
Keep in mind that Frank does have many legitimate arguments.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 10:49 pm
I am not quite sure how to take that. When it comes to Christianity and the Bible, I don't think he does. I think if you can't understand the concept of a loving God, it's just downright sad.

And I still do not understand if he says he is an agnostic and does not believe in anything, oh, wait a minute here, he does too believe in something! I don't remember his exact quote but it had something to do with he owes mankind to bash Christians or something. (The point is he said he believes in something!) Woo hoo! That's a start!
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 11:40 pm
Thanks for the input.

Frank, to answer your q: Yes, I support legalized abortion.
My personal experience has led me to that position.

Just so I am fair pickin's' like everyone else here, I'll tell you what my beliefs are.
I don't practise any specific religion, but I have learned a lot from the ones I have bothered to listen to. I grew up Christian. Roman Catholic to be exact. I rebelled against organized religion, even going so far as to burn bibles (that really had more to do with irritating an invasive neighbour Smile ). There are members of my family and friends who are religious, in that they are Christians or Buddhists. Others are atheists and anarchists (please don't ask me to explain anarchy! I couldn't answer with any sense).
At that point I decided to start studying the other religions, and I ate my way through philosophy. I'm still studying. My 'religion' is basically a mishmash of personal experiences and conclusions. I relate best to nature-worship.
I've come to believe that everyone has to believe in something. It can be religion, sensual experience, scientific inquiry, or a million others. No matter who you are, it's impossible to act without making some beliefs. I'm thinking that it's just part of being human.

I really enjoy reading Soren Kierkegaard. He was a christian, amongst other things. He writes about his own search for meaning and God.
It's a good read, and it works the brain. I am also really enjoying studying Buddhism. Buddhism may very well be a religion that crosses the divide we are currently facing between science and religion. It promotes rigorous self-examination. Find your own reality: here's how I, Buddha, went about it. I like the fact that Buddhism can be incorporated with other faiths.



Laughing
0 Replies
 
Paaskynen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 12:21 am
A fetus is a fetus is a fetus

The view of a liberal European agnostic is that life and death decisions cannot be left to any religion, because that would inevitably imply discrimination of those with other convictions. We are all for the strict separation of church and state, or religion and politics.

Inherent in all religions is that they consider themselves to be the best, if not the only way to salvation (relativism is the death of religion), which implies that they consider their own views in these matters to be superior to those of others and thus feel that they have a right, or moral obligation, to impose their views upon others for their own good.

Liberals and Agnostics on the other hand consider that anyone should have the greatest possible liberty to decide for themselves, so that all creeds and convictions can be equally free in their expression. The only limits imposed by the law should be of practical and rational nature.

As mentioned by others, in times when medical science had not progressed very far, there was no talk of a child until it had been seprated physically from its mother, and it did not officially exist as a human being until it had been baptised (or otherwise ritually presented to and accepted by the community). The progress in medical science has made it possible to separate a child from its mother at points in its development when it is in fact unfit for survival, but with the aid of science (no god in the machine) they can be kept alive and carried to the point where they can be separated, not from their mother but from the machine.

I propose that we return to the old definition of a child in a rewording which also covers the possibilities offered by modern science: A fetus does not legally become a child until it has been separated physically from the body of its mother and is able to maintain heartbeat and respiration and body temperature independent of machinery. So up to that point the decisions concerning the fetus are entirely up to the expectant mother and/or the doctor in charge.
The question of a soul is totally irrelevant in this matter considering that it is a religious concept, which is not universally recognised, and for which no empirical evidence can be produced (DNA tests will reveal possible genetic defects, but not the presence/absence of a soul).

Finally, in this overpopulated world, I consider that any conviction that seeks unbridled increase of the human population is irrational and a threat to the survival of the human race. But then again, survival of the human race is irrelevant to the religious extremists, who are only concerned with the survival of the human soul (whatever that may be), and some actually long for the end of the world, because they believe they are the chosen ones and will be rewarded for following the only true path to the only true salvation by the only true god. Rolling Eyes (In fact, some fanatics are so eager to see themselves proven right, that they can't wait for armageddon (past predictions as to the date have unfortunately proved to be rather unreliable) and kill themselves, taking a short-cut to bliss as they see it, which is of course a way to reduce human population pressure so I cannot condemn that, so long as they do not impose their self-chosen fate on others, like the suicide/martyr bombers of late.)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 03:28 am
Setanta wrote:
I recall when Frank first showed up at AFUZZ . . . i liked him then and i like him now. I consider him to be as full of poop as an overflowing cess pool on many topics, but i like him.


Thank you...I think! Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 03:35 am
Momma Angel wrote:
And I am right behind Intrepid in that assessment. We have tried to converse civilly and Frank won't have any of it. So, I too, stopped conversing with Frank.


You see...here is the problem.

I do not do "believing"...but I share what I feel and think.

Here are a few things I "feel and think."

I think Christianity is one of the most hypocritical religions ever to infect the planet Earth...and I think the danger it poses for humanity is so great...it must be fought with as much vigor as absolutely possible.

How the hell do I say that any more politely than that?

I think that the people who abet Christianity....who make up its body....are unthinking sheep incapable of understanding or appreciating logical argument showing their religion to be rank with hypocrisy and a festering, cancerous sore on society.

How the hell do I say that any more politely than that?

I think that the god of the Bible...far from being the compassionate, loving, kind god the Christians want to paint it to be....is a jealous, vengeful, quick-to-anger, revenge driven, terroristic, tyrannical, murderous, petty barbarian...invented by the ancient Hebrews to protect themselves from the jealous, vengeful, quick-to-anger, revenge driven, terroristic, tyrannical, murderous, petty barbaric gods of their enemies. I find it inconceivable that modern day humans would buy into this nonsense...and I often call attention to the kinds of stupidity and intellectual laziness that causes that to happen.

How the hell do I say that any more politely than that?


I could go on...but I am sure you all get the picture.

I have a view of life...that none of you Christians show any tolerance for. And you jump all over me and claim that I am being rude when share it.

That is unthinking, hypocritical horseshyt on your part.

How the hell do I say that any more politely than that?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 03:37 am
Paaskynen wrote:
A fetus is a fetus is a fetus

The view of a liberal European agnostic is that life and death decisions cannot be left to any religion, because that would inevitably imply discrimination of those with other convictions. We are all for the strict separation of church and state, or religion and politics.

Inherent in all religions is that they consider themselves to be the best, if not the only way to salvation (relativism is the death of religion), which implies that they consider their own views in these matters to be superior to those of others and thus feel that they have a right, or moral obligation, to impose their views upon others for their own good.

Liberals and Agnostics on the other hand consider that anyone should have the greatest possible liberty to decide for themselves, so that all creeds and convictions can be equally free in their expression. The only limits imposed by the law should be of practical and rational nature.

As mentioned by others, in times when medical science had not progressed very far, there was no talk of a child until it had been seprated physically from its mother, and it did not officially exist as a human being until it had been baptised (or otherwise ritually presented to and accepted by the community). The progress in medical science has made it possible to separate a child from its mother at points in its development when it is in fact unfit for survival, but with the aid of science (no god in the machine) they can be kept alive and carried to the point where they can be separated, not from their mother but from the machine.

I propose that we return to the old definition of a child in a rewording which also covers the possibilities offered by modern science: A fetus does not legally become a child until it has been separated physically from the body of its mother and is able to maintain heartbeat and respiration and body temperature independent of machinery. So up to that point the decisions concerning the fetus are entirely up to the expectant mother and/or the doctor in charge.
The question of a soul is totally irrelevant in this matter considering that it is a religious concept, which is not universally recognised, and for which no empirical evidence can be produced (DNA tests will reveal possible genetic defects, but not the presence/absence of a soul).

Finally, in this overpopulated world, I consider that any conviction that seeks unbridled increase of the human population is irrational and a threat to the survival of the human race. But then again, survival of the human race is irrelevant to the religious extremists, who are only concerned with the survival of the human soul (whatever that may be), and some actually long for the end of the world, because they believe they are the chosen ones and will be rewarded for following the only true path to the only true salvation by the only true god. Rolling Eyes (In fact, some fanatics are so eager to see themselves proven right, that they can't wait for armageddon (past predictions as to the date have unfortunately proved to be rather unreliable) and kill themselves, taking a short-cut to bliss as they see it, which is of course a way to reduce human population pressure so I cannot condemn that, so long as they do not impose their self-chosen fate on others, like the suicide/martyr bombers of late.)


All sounds great to me. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 06:49 am
neologist wrote:
Keep in mind that Frank does have many legitimate arguments.


Frank does have very good arguments and very good reason to point out the holes in other peoples argument. He has a right to defend his beliefs or his opinions regarding the beliefs of others. What he does not have the right to do is make people feel that they cannot express their beliefs or that their beliefs are "idiotic" or "insane". Many people might think his ideas are insane. A2K is for good, clean debate. Learning about other people and the way they think and live. Frank may very well be extremely educated in Christianity but he far from knows the minds and beliefs of every Christian.

I think Frank is incredibly intelligent and thought provoking. Many of the things he brings up, others will not. It causes controversy and controversy fuels a good debate. Sometimes I think he is too blunt and unintentionally (?) conveys the wrong message. Like ehbeth or osso said, he is attacking the argument but I think sometimes it comes off as attacking the person. Or maybe he is having a bad day. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 06:52 am
Frank Apisa wrote:


I have a view of life...that none of you Christians show any tolerance for. And you jump all over me and claim that I am being rude when share it.

That is unthinking, hypocritical horseshyt on your part.

How the hell do I say that any more politely than that?


I am a Christian and I respect your right to not believe what I believe. In fact, I agree partly with a lot of what you say. I do not associate myself with any particular religion but consider myself Christian. Does that make me an idiot? Seriously, I am asking you to honestly answer if identifying myself as a Christian automatically makes me a dolt.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 08:11 am
I am on another board that has people of differing religious, politcal and cultural views. Not once has any member been subjected to foul language, disrespect, name calling or being labeled as idiots because their beliefs may differ from others. They are intelligent, caring people who avoid causing people to feel in any way inferior. People who feel that discussion is better than arguing. Arguing is for the likes of the Jerry Springer show where nobody ever knows what is going on because you only hear the yelling. The yelling here has got to the point where the original topic is blurred into the background. Everybody take a deep breath and carry on.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 08:40 am
Bella Dea wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:


I have a view of life...that none of you Christians show any tolerance for. And you jump all over me and claim that I am being rude when share it.

That is unthinking, hypocritical horseshyt on your part.

How the hell do I say that any more politely than that?


I am a Christian and I respect your right to not believe what I believe. In fact, I agree partly with a lot of what you say. I do not associate myself with any particular religion but consider myself Christian. Does that make me an idiot? Seriously, I am asking you to honestly answer if identifying myself as a Christian automatically makes me a dolt.


Nope...anymore than the fact that my mother, before she died, identified herself as a Christian who went to church every day. No more than my brother who is a practicing Christian...or several of my aunts...or many, many of my personal friends.

I try not to make blanket statements about Christians (although I acknowledge I occasionally do that regarding the Christians I am debating in this forum)...and try to confine my comments to Christianity. Sort of a "I despise Christianity but love Christians" if you will.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:08 am
To me, organized religion can be and often is as dangerous as Frank says, and I view unorganized religion, usually, as a series of delusions. I think religion, organized or not, can be a legitimate stance to hold in that religions are systems for living - while I personally find the core beliefs unsupportable. The effects of those systems are what matter to me, whether they impose on myself and others and in what manner - they often do horrendously negatively, sometimes positively.

As to idiotic or moronic - back when I was a member of an organized religion decades ago I wasn't an idiot or moron, though I now understand someone thinking that.

As I said earlier, people have different ways of argumentation, and hearty debunking has its points, emphasis on the debunking. I have learned to discount fervid (or fervent) emotion as a winning component, while I can understand the emotion.

Someone here on a2k once typed up a list of logical fallacies, or gave a link to a list, and I thought that was pretty useful.

On not arguing and only discussing - a2k is at least in part a debate forum. Learning how to debate is useful, whatever side of an issue one is on. I watch and learn myself.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:15 am
ossobuco wrote:
Someone here on a2k once typed up a list of logical fallacies, or gave a link to a list, and I thought that was pretty useful.

On not arguing and only discussing - a2k is at least in part a debate forum. Learning how to debate is useful, whatever side of an issue one is on. I watch and learn myself.
I don't like posting links to sites outside of a2k, and don't normally read them; but this would be a good LIST OF LOGICAL FALLACIES to start with. I am sure there are others.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:16 am
Interesting...thanks for the link!
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:18 am
Oh, that's a great link, thanks a lot.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:48 am
I liked that one myself, Neo.

Thank you.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 10:40 am
Neo,

That is a GREAT link. I am going to print that one out and do some reading.

Frank,

As you can see, we are trying to find a way to communicate effectively and civilly with you. I have noticed in the past few posts and in one in another thread, I see you are really making an effort to compromise. I appreciate that. I, too, am one that thinks you are a very intelligent man that more than likely, has a lot to add and we can learn from you.

It's just your "baseball" method I have objected to. It's like this, if you hit someone on the back of the head with a baseball bat and say, Now, are you listening to me?" Well, it's gonna take awhile to recover from the blow so you are probably not being listened to much, if at all.

Others have posted that they don't like "certain Christians, certain Christian behaviors, or certain Christian beliefs." That's fine. But, no one wants to be lumped into a category like "you Christians and your idiotic beliefs, or the Christians that force religion, etc. I am a Christian but I don't do what some Christians do. And, is it so hard to refrain from using words like insane, moron, idiotic? Can't you just say, "I don't agree and this is why?" What's the harm there? That's all I (and I think some others) are saying here. When you call us "poor deluded sheep" you are taking away any possibility that anything we may say may have some validity. You toss the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

Now, Ossobuco was very kind in trying to smooth the waters here, and it is because of Osso (and your effort in that other thread to be more polite) that I am addressing you again. Frank, I think you could be so instrumental in our UPN scenario. If you have a problem with Law Number 2 there, that's fine. That's what we are trying to do. Start up fresh and brand new, find the problems, and correct the problems. I think you just got a bit ahead of us on that one. We don't even have Hitlers in that UPN society yet.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 10:47 am
What are fiends for?Laughing
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 10:59 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Frank, I think you could be so instrumental in our UPN scenario. If you have a problem with Law Number 2 there, that's fine. That's what we are trying to do. Start up fresh and brand new, find the problems, and correct the problems. I think you just got a bit ahead of us on that one. We don't even have Hitlers in that UPN society yet.


My point, MA, is that you don't need the likes of Hitler in the society for rule #2 to come apart at the seams. All you need is someone like me...or you, for that matter.

NONE of us are tolerant and respectful of all other beliefs or people.

NONE OF US.

And it is to the distinct advantage of civilization that we are not.

You...or it appears to me...want to set the boundries for what is acceptable and not acceptable not only in your hypothetical society...but also in this society in which we live. You...and people like you.

You want us all to be "like you."

You consider yourself to be "nice' and "respectful" and "moral" and "decent."

But I am...even in the persona you deal with here in the forum...as nice, respectful, moral and decent as anyone else I know...or know of.

You simply cannot appreciate that.

Yet!

We'll work on this problem together.

But for right now...I am off to catch a train to NYC. I'm gonna hook up with a couple of A2Kers and have a delightful time.

Hope you have a good rest of the day, MA.
0 Replies
 
 

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