ABORTION.......

Intrepid wrote:

Questioner wrote:
MA, to answer your question, here is a prime example.

Intrepid wrote:
Some have an open heart that cries that a life should be ended before it has a chance to experience life. Some have stone cold hearts that almost seem to revel in the butchery that takes place. .

And Intrepid, talk about drawing battle lines?

:-)
I hope that you, Sir, do not live in a glass house.

Questioner wrote to Intrepid:

Quote:
question the validity of the statement that a fetus is a living human. Period. Your side insists that if something is living it must therefore be held sacred. My argument to you is that a cancer is living, and we most certainly do not hold IT sacred. The fool, sir, is thee.
<emphasis are mine>

I could counter by pointing out that I used the word fool in response to your allegations that arguments being made by myself and previously by Frank were foolish. However, I suspect that my house may be as fragile as the next person's for I'm certainly not above reproach in such matters as debate.

I withdraw the negative comments made, for they were made in anger and with some frustration.

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Eorl,

I guess I'm not following you. You speak as if you are speaking for ALL women. I am simply trying to get you to understand that not all women think and feel the same. Therefore, you should not generalize when you make some of your harsh comments. Such as you made to Intrepid when you called him stupid because of his belief that a first trimester death of a baby can be as traumatic to a woman as the death of a 6 year old child. Who are you to say that it can't be?

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Eorl Wrote:

Quote:

If that were the case, why do some women who think they already have too many kids have abortions?

Would it not be easier to knock one of her existing kids on the head?

I guess they don't because it's illegal?

Come on guys, seriously. No-one would find it difficult to choose between an early pregnancy and a six year old. Sad yes...comparable, no way.

Why do they have abortions? Because it's convenient for them. Because they can't actually see the face of the child and can rationalize it's life away. I would guess there are many more reasons but those two came to mind immediately.

No one would find it difficult to choose between.....? I would think that any woman SHOULD find it difficult to choose between the two. Both are living children. In different life stages, yes, but living children nonetheless.

Questioner,

I understand how you may have felt Intrepid was doing some pretty blatant name calling. However, I don't think he was. He said SOME he did not say who that was and he did not point a particular finger.

If WE believe that it is a human child and not a mere fetus, of course we are going to believe that abortion is murder. Just as you believe it is a fetus and not a human child so it's not murder to you.

Abortion is a very difficult topic to discuss without tempers flaring. Mine has flared somewhat at times. But, we must all remember that what we post is OUR OPINIONS, OUR BELIEFS, etc. We take responsibility for what we post by using I, mine, IMO, etc. We do the best we can to be courteous to everyone (most do anyway). So, please try to understand that to us it is a child and in allowing that child not to be born we find that truly offensive, especially when it is done so often out of inconvenience.

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Eorl wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
I am also troubled by the fact that you continue to put graduated levels of loss on people and animals. The loss of a child through miscarriage is no less heartbreaking than that of the 6 year old child.

It makes me wonder what has happened in your life for you to have such distorted views on life, the living, and the potential living.

Eorl wrote:

Quote:
This is where we differ Intrepid.

I have friends who have miscarried before 12 weeks. It happens so often (1 in 6) that most women don't tell anyone they are pregnant until after 12 weeks. Yes, there is serious grief.

I also had a friend who's baby died in utero at 8 months. The grief she felt and for that matter the grief I felt was GREATER BY FAR than if it happened earlier. (She had to go through with giving birth)

In both cases, the fetus died. Why is one a greater grief than the other?

Quote:
The idea that the loss of a 6 year old would not be FAR GREATER is just stupid. How insane are you that you say that? Do you have children? Worry all you like about my state of mind but seriously....a first term miscarriage is equal to the death of a six-year old???? NEVER.

You show your excellent debating skills by calling me stupid and insane. Takes a lot of thought and intellect to come up with that.

Yes, I have children and grandchildren. In fact, I have a 6 year old grandchild that I love more that you could know, as I do all my grandchildren. My daughter-inlaw miscarried early in a pregnancy. I also lost a 2 month old grandson a few weeks ago. I grieved all of them the same as I would my precious 6 year old. You have some nerve telling people what they should believe and that they should follow your way of lookiing at things. You have no concept of the real world and real feelings.

Quote:
This is entirely my point and one real life is also suddenly deciding he does not understand.

There IS a gradual development of a foetus from pre-dinner drinks through to 9 months The POTENTIAL human being becoming gradually less potential and more actual along that path. To pretend a whole complete person exists on day one is just willful ignorance.

What the hell does this mean?

Quote:
A dead six year old is equal to a first term miscarriage??? ....I'm appalled. You are stupid. There's no other way to see it.

You show your excellent debating skills by again calling me stupid. It takes a lot of thought and intellect to come up with that. I actually pity you.

Quote:
To NOT see a "graduated loss of people and animals" is to risk being a monster through idealistic idiocy...and you say I have distorted views?

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I apologize Intrepid...my frustration gets the better of me.

Let me say first I'm very sorry for your loss. As I've tried to point out often, I value all life greatly.

I see you really do feel that way...that you mourn the loss of the pregnancy as much as the 2 month old. I will try to understand that...since I now realise you mean it and know it through bitter experience.

I was not saying how you SHOULD feel, I have no right, I just didn't think anyone actually would think like that, it makes so little sense to me.

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Eorl wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Eorl wrote:

..... I am also troubled by the fact that you continue to put graduated levels of loss on people and animals. The loss of a child through miscarriage is no less heartbreaking than that of the 6 year old child.

It makes me wonder what has happened in your life for you to have such distorted views on life, the living, and the potential living.

This is where we differ Intrepid.

I have friends who have miscarried before 12 weeks. It happens so often (1 in 6) that most women don't tell anyone they are pregnant until after 12 weeks. Yes, there is serious grief.

I also had a friend who's baby died in utero at 8 months. The grief she felt and for that matter the grief I felt was GREATER BY FAR than if it happened earlier. (She had to go through with giving birth)

The idea that the loss of a 6 year old would not be FAR GREATER is just stupid. How insane are you that you say that? Do you have children? Worry all you like about my state of mind but seriously....a first term miscarriage is equal to the death of a six-year old???? NEVER.

This is entirely my point and one real life is also suddenly deciding he does not understand.

There IS a gradual development of a foetus from pre-dinner drinks through to 9 months. The POTENTIAL human being becoming gradually less potential and more actual along that path. To pretend a whole complete person exists on day one is just willful ignorance.

A dead six year old is equal to a first term miscarriage??? ....I'm appalled. You are stupid. There's no other way to see it.

To NOT see a "graduated loss of people and animals" is to risk being a monster through idealistic idiocy...and you say I have distorted views?

Please show me a reference for your statement that 1 out of every 6 pregnancys ends in a miscarriage. That sounds like an abnormally high number to me.

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non-denom christian
By the way that you quoted, it appears that you are attributing Eorl's remarks to me and my remarks to him.

Please understand that Eorl gave that reference.

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I was not saying how you SHOULD feel, I have no right, I just didn't think anyone actually would think like that, it makes so little sense to me.

Earl, empathy is a virtue and a trait that I've never noticed about you before. I'm glad to read you have that quality about you.

I find that it's like a shield that keeps us from judging each other. At least, that's what empathy has taught me. It works great when you have a disagreement with someone you care about a lot and don't want to argue with. It's like it allows to to agree to disagree.

What gets me is when people on this thread who claim that abortions are not murder say it's not a life. If this person is an atheist, since I don't know any christians that think an abortion is "the right thing to do", shouldn't even atheists know the scientific definition of life? It amazes me how people mentally change the reality around themselves by manipulating the truth. Psychocoligists and advertisers will agree that people will start believing things they hear repetitively. A person can "talk" themselves into believing what ever they choose, if they tell themselves over and over again. That's why lie detector tests don't work.

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Intrepid wrote:

non-denom christian
By the way that you quoted, it appears that you are attributing Eorl's remarks to me and my remarks to him.

Please understand that Eorl gave that reference.

Yea, Sorry, I don't know how that happened. It was a mistake on my part.

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non-denom christian wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
non-denom christian
By the way that you quoted, it appears that you are attributing Eorl's remarks to me and my remarks to him.

Please understand that Eorl gave that reference.

Yea, Sorry, I don't know how that happened. It was a mistake on my part.

I only pointed it out because a mistake like that can put someone in an even worse light than they may be in already. ;-) This is a thread where one would hope to be quoted correctly, if ya know what I mean. Laughing

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non,

there are stats all over the net but try here...

these guys say perhaps as many as 50% are miscarried.

http://www.womens-health.co.uk/miscarr.asp

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Really, I don't know how it got switched around. I think it was a computer glitch or maybe I'm just not familiar enough with how the quotes work.

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Eorl wrote:

non,

there are stats all over the net but try here...

these guys say perhaps as many as 50% are miscarried.

http://www.womens-health.co.uk/miscarr.asp

Earl do you live in the UK? This is a link to an article from the UK and you article agrees with what you have stated. I will do a search for the U.S.
I wonder if the rate of miscarriages is relavent to the number of abortions or not.

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It would be impossible to statistically prove how many miscarriages take place. Most women don't talk about it. Etc. Etc. That is a private matter.
Stats are useless here.

I understand having strong feelings against abortion. I honestly do.
The part that I have trouble understanding is why some people feel it is within their right to impose their feelings, beliefs, and will upon others concerning abortion.

Why is it so hard to allow women the chance to make the decisions concerning her own child and body herself? It must take a belief that women are incapable of making intelligent, loving choices in this regard. At least that is how I see it.

Women, in general, are born with the instinct to mother. We are born with an intelligence that helps us along when we are with child. Few women wish harm upon their children. Few women are out to destroy their fetus' on a whim. Women with no feeling for a developing child or a born child are exceptions. This is what I observe.

Does the availability of legal abortion increase the rate of neglectful, abusive mothering? I think not. I think that is simply not true.

If I am correct: the end goal is supposedly the safety and well-being of children and developing children (fetus'). With rational and intelligent understanding, I see no reason why that goal should not be met. Humans have managed to raise children waaay before abortion was a relative safe and medical procedure.

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non,

No, I am in Australia. (which is why I spell foetus correctly Wink

)

I don't think miscarriage rate is relevant to abortion at all, except to point out how common it is for foetuses not to make full term.

flushd, agree entirely.

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flushd, the problem seems to come about if you accept that once sperm meets egg ...you have a person. People have the right not to be killed, even by their mothers.

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flushed says:
Why is it so hard to allow women the chance to make the decisions concerning her own child and body herself? It must take a belief that women are incapable of making intelligent, loving choices in this regard. At least that is how I see it.

Answer:
Abortions have nothing to do with love. If you believe that, you do not know the true meaning of love.
A good friend of mine said he thought abortions should be the choice of the mother. I agreed, BUT if I had the office of decision for the country, I would have to vote against it because I do not believe in it myself. I believe that ignorance is bliss. I believe that ignorance is not a good excuse. The whole system would have to change starting with teaching values in schools, being allowed the freedom of religion in schools. Our military does it. In the military you can have a day off to practice witch craft or Christianity if you wish. Each person has to find it for them self. My God says to love one another and treat your enemy as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If I was a teen and pregnant, I would like someone to tell me everything is going to be OK and NOT to have an abortion. Why? Because it leaves a permanent scar on a woman's heart! It is something that can not be undone. It leaves a woman feeling guilty.

I would not want that for anyone. I would say, "Never give up! Can I be of any help? Here's my number. Call me if you want to talk. I care."

I'm telling you, I know women (plural), who still think about it as strongly today as when it happened 20 years ago! Feelings of guilt, or having to have their uteruses removed because of the damage that their abortion caused. A scarred uterus can even cause a miscarriage, can you believe that?

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flusd writes

Quote:

I understand having strong feelings against abortion. I honestly do.
The part that I have trouble understanding is why some people feel it is within their right to impose their feelings, beliefs, and will upon others concerning abortion.

It all comes down to whether one believes aborting a baby is killing a baby, an infant human being. Pro choice people call the baby they intend to give birth to a baby, but if they intend to abort it, then they won't calll it a baby. They call it something else. They have to assign subhuman status to it in order to justify killing it. And in truth, a great deal of this debate has focused on that very thing. Is the developing human being within a womb a person? If so, how does one justify killing it within the womb, even minutes or hours before birth? Once the baby has left the birth canal, even seconds or minutes later, killing it is legally murder.

Pro choice people see a difference between the two. Pro life people do not.

So pro life people do not see that they are 'forcing their views on others'. They see themselves as being consistent. And they are. If a baby is a baby at any stage, then it is reasonable to protect it at any stage. It is as reasonable to expect a mother to have as much concern for her unborn child as she is expected to have for the born ones.

As for miscarriages, yes they do happen. And all born children do not live for whatever reasons. But pro lifers believe each one should have the right to be loved and, if they must leave early, they should be mourned and life goes on. It should not be up to the grown ups to decide whether they live or die. All children should be wanted. If they cannot be wanted, they should not be conceived.

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non-denom christian wrote:

Really, I don't know how it got switched around. I think it was a computer glitch or maybe I'm just not familiar enough with how the quotes work.

It can be tricky, for sure. Laughing

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Eorl wrote:

non,

No, I am in Australia. (which is why I spell foetus correctly )

I don't think miscarriage rate is relevant to abortion at all, except to point out how common it is for foetuses not to make full term.

flushd, agree entirely.

There is a marked difference between a miscarriage and an intentional destruction of the fetus through abortion. One is certainly not relevant to the the other. It is a poor argument to say that since there are miscarriages, abortion should be ok.

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