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Church vs Bible, What to believe?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 10:06 am
@Leadfoot,
Leqsfoot,

Are you saying you didn't go to Sunday school or learn about Jesus when you were a kid? Were your parents not Christians?

If that is the case, it would be unusual. Religion is usually transmitted through family and inculcated during childhood. I know one person who converted from religious catholic to religious protestant... that caused quite a stir in the family. But that isn't usual.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 12:11 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Are you saying you didn't go to Sunday school or learn about Jesus when you were a kid? Were your parents not Christians?
Nope, overheard snatches of religious talk, radio, the unavoidable exposure that no one escapes (in US). but first picked up a Bible in my early 20s.

My purpose in picking it up was to verify my assumption that it would condemn the philosophy that was forming in myself. Gobsmacked is the only word that describes the effect it had. Every snatch of religious talk about the Bible I’d ever heard bore no resemblance to what I read in it. And it reinforced the ideas I was having rather than condemned them.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 12:50 pm
@maxdancona,
I had a set of these when I was a kid. They are probably still stored somewhere at my parents' house. It's how I learned the stories.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Story

I did go to Sunday School, but I already knew the stories from the above books, so it didn't really teach me anything.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 01:53 pm
I went the opposite direction. I was brought up with Christian parents going to Sunday school. In my late teens and early twenties I became more religious and started studying to go into the ministry. I know the Bible better than most religious people.

However when I started to think about it, a couple things stopped making sense. The first was evolution and for a while I was trying to interpret the Bible in such a way that we could have God directed evolution. That actually takes some mental gymnastics that I had more and more difficulty doing.

The second thing is I as I started having life experience I realized that the Bible didn't actually match the reality I was living. One big example is when I got to know someone who is homosexual and had to confront the rather cruel things that the Bible has to say about homosexuality.

Then as I started studying science and learning to think rationally and demanding evidence maintaining my Christian faith became more and more difficult to do.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 01:57 pm
@maxdancona,
The Bible is not a logical book. Some of the things simply don't make sense. People who have decided that the Bible is true after then either ignore the contradictions or come up with rather complex ways to interpret reality.

There are religious people who live the good parts of religion, the values, the care for other people, the forgiveness and acceptance. These people tend to not focus on arguing over theological details that don't really matter.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 02:32 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The Bible is not a logical book. Some of the things simply don't make sense.
After my first exposure and surprise, that was the question I wanted answered - Is there a perspective from which it all makes sense?

Cant say I’ve examined everything in it but I’m satisfied with my progress.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 02:44 pm
@Leadfoot,
The human mind is plastic. If your aim is to convince yourself the Bible makes sense (or the Quran or the Book of Mormon or any other religions text).

Notice the defensive mechanism you have set up for your religious belief. When someone questions them you attack the person rather than considering the logic.

Paul talks about death being like sleep. He wass saying that after you did your soul lives on, and that this afterlife is like "waking up". This is a sweet image and is comforting to humans that have trouble accepting death... But it doesn't make logical sense.

Let's say after I die, some ethereal version of me wakes up in some afterlife (assuming I make it to the good place).

I am defined by my genes, my memories stored in physical neurons in my brain. I have ideas, fears, lustful thoughts, people I love... all of these things make up who I am.

I don't know whether this new Max will have my personality or my memories. I assume this new Max probably won't ever get angry or get the urge to masturbate.

What makes you think this new Max will even be me?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 03:51 pm
@maxdancona,
You know Max you was a little slow in reaching the conclusion that the bible was nonsense as I did reach that conclusion at roughly ten years old after reading my family King Jame Bible.

Love the idea that half of the angels in heaven would or could revolt against this all powerful being for example.

Then the god in the bible seem more like an evil being in term of human morals at least.

Just picturing the majority of the human race including mothers with their babies in their arms being drown was enough for me at a very young age.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 04:03 pm
@BillRM,
On the topic Bill... People listen to churches rather than to the bible. Each community has their own beliefs and they interpret the Bible based on it.

When I was a religious Christian my world view made sense. My beliefs were based on the interpretation of my church community (with a few minor personal innovations). Religious beliefs are generally internally consistent.

Many churches claim to follow the bible correctly "without interpretation". Of course only one of them can be correct, and come to think of it, I have yet to see a church where people gouge out their own eyes.

However, I haven't found that my religious world view is any less logical than secular world views. I think everyone has faith in something.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 06:31 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The human mind is plastic. If your aim is to convince yourself the Bible makes sense (or the Quran or the Book of Mormon or any other religions text)
That’s why we were given the gift of Reason/logic. If it doesn’t make sense in light of these, you need to keep working on your perspective until it does.
Or give up, that’s always an option.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 06:35 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
What makes you think this new Max will even be me?

Were you the same Max when you woke up this morning as you were yesterday?
If you were, then Paul was right. If not, he lied.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 07:13 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
The human mind is plastic. If your aim is to convince yourself the Bible makes sense (or the Quran or the Book of Mormon or any other religions text)
That’s why we were given the gift of Reason/logic. If it doesn’t make sense in light of these, you need to keep working on your perspective until it does.
Or give up, that’s always an option.


There’s another option. You can indulge in the self-delusion that you’ve got everything figured out.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 02:18 pm
@snood,
You are welcome to point out my 'delusions' anytime. If you’re legit, you will.

No claim of having 'figured it all out', but I haven’t given up either.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 03:21 pm
@Leadfoot,
I was using the generic form of “you”.

As in, you could do ‘A’, or you could do ‘B’.

Just substitute the generic placeholder “one”, if it’s confusing. As in, one could do ‘A’...
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 03:45 pm
@snood,
Of course you were
snood
 
  3  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 03:50 pm
@Leadfoot,
And of course you assume it’s about you.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2021 05:30 am
@snood,
Just another one of my delusions I guess
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2021 05:35 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I think everyone has faith in something.

True, Frank’s claim to the contrary notwithstanding.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2021 06:38 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
What makes you think this new Max will even be me?

Were you the same Max when you woke up this morning as you were yesterday?
If you were, then Paul was right. If not, he lied.


Sleep is a biological process that is centered around the brain. When I say "brain" I mean the physical collection of tissue that is centered in my skull. I don't mean "self" or "consciousness" or "mind" or "soul". I simply mean brain.

I am quite sure that I had the same brain last night that I do right now. This means I have the same personality, the same memories, the same ways of thinking... these are functions of the brain.

If you made a really good computer program that would have the same memories,thoughts, ideas, beliefs and emotions that my brain had... that would not be me. In order to be me, I need to have my brain. If you took my brain and transplanted it into a robot body... that would be me.

Any other organ of my body can be replaced and I will still be alive. If my brain ceases to function, I am dead. It is that simple.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2021 08:48 am
@maxdancona,
I’m curious. Do you not understand the concept of analogy?

I understand that you see the world as a materialist, but by your participation I also assumed you were aware that some others believe in another ‘dimension' , real or not. It seems like you are pretending not to know this, not that you believe it but know that others do. And that your goal is to point out inconsistencies in their world view.

What I’m saying is that you can’t do that without adopting their view, even though it’s just for the purposes of mental experiment.

Have I understood where you are coming from here?
 

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