2
   

Church vs Bible, What to believe?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2021 02:23 pm
@oralloy,
The Omrides were the ancestors of modern day Palestinians.

You came into this with an extreme, quite modern, political view. You are trying to twist the facts to support it.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2021 02:37 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The Omrides were the ancestors of modern day Palestinians.

Do you have any facts to support this claim?

DNA (which shows that the Palestinians were last unified with the Jews during the Bronze Age) would seem to argue against it. Many of the former Israelites merged with the population of Judah after the collapse of the northern Israelite kingdom.


maxdancona wrote:
You came into this with an extreme, quite modern, political view. You are trying to twist the facts to support it.

I am not twisting any facts, or trying to do so. I merely report what the facts actually are.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2021 02:46 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
A historian will say "If tens of thousands of Hebrews were kept as slaves in Egypt, then I would expect to see this evidence". That evidence doesn't exist. Then they say "if tens of thousands of people are wandering 40 years in the Sinai peninsula I would expect to see this evidence". These historians have experience, they know what to look for when studying migrant populations. They see nothing.

My post here is more along the lines of "plausible speculation" than "proven fact" but do we know what ultimately happened to the Hyksos?

If the Hyksos ended up being reabsorbed into the Canaanite population, then former Canaanites can plausibly claim that their ancestors once lived in Egypt before fleeing an oppressive government.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2021 05:44 pm
@oralloy,
It is simple logic Oralloy.

1. The mondern day Palestinians and the modern day Israeli have the same ancestors (you havie already agreed with this).

2. The Omride kingdom consisted of the people living in much of the territory of what is modern day Israel... even though this was not a Jewish kindom. They were polytheists... even the Bible says they worshipeed Baal.

3. If the Jews and the Palestinians had the same ancestors, and Jews have an ancestral claim to the land... than so do the Palestinians.

That third step is your problem. Once the facts hit up against one of your extreme (and often absurd) political opinions, you abandon the facts.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2021 06:05 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
It is simple logic Oralloy.

OK.


maxdancona wrote:
1. The modern day Palestinians and the modern day Israeli have the same ancestors (you have already agreed with this).

Agreed.


maxdancona wrote:
2. The Omride kingdom consisted of the people living in much of the territory of what is modern day Israel... even though this was not a Jewish kingdom. They were polytheists... even the Bible says they worshiped Baal.

Omride Israel was very much a Jewish kingdom. Back then there was no conflict between Judaism and polytheism.

Jewish monotheism was imposed by King Hezekiah after the collapse of the northern Israelite kingdom. It's been awhile since I've read about his creation of Jewish monotheism, so I forget the reasons for it. However, at the time he was trying to integrate huge crowds of former Israelites into his kingdom, so it may have been an attempt to manage that.

Maybe later tonight if I get some free time I'll refresh my memory of King Hezekiah's program of monotheism and then come back and post a more detailed commentary.


maxdancona wrote:
3. If the Jews and the Palestinians had the same ancestors, and Jews have an ancestral claim to the land... then so do the Palestinians.

Agreed.


maxdancona wrote:
That third step is your problem.

I see no problem.


maxdancona wrote:
Once the facts hit up against one of your extreme (and often absurd) political opinions, you abandon the facts.

I defy you to provide any example of me ever abandoning a fact.

I suppose sometimes I fail to see the relevance of a fact. But when that happens I always welcome people to make an argument that the fact in question is relevant if they wish.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2021 06:17 pm
@oralloy,
You seem to now be accepting that Palestinians have the same ancestral rights to the land now occupied by Israel that the Jews have.

That is progress.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2021 06:23 pm
@maxdancona,
I've always accepted that.

Or at least, I have accepted it for a very long time, ever since you posted that DNA study some 15 years ago.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 05:43 am
@oralloy,
Oralloy said:
Quote:

Or at least, I have accepted it for a very long time, ever since you posted that DNA study some 15 years ago.


Interesting discussion.

It illustrates what I see as the 'basic divide' between two world views.

I don’t think the 'Chosen People' has anything to do with genetics or ancestry. I suppose eventually there might be a genetic diversion but that would be incidental, depending on your starting assumptions.

Either there was a God who could choose or there wasn’t.

I would hope God would not make his choices solely based on ancestry and genetics. I think Adolf did it that way.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 06:34 am
@Leadfoot,
The question is whether God is an asshole. This is different from the question of whether he exists or not.

If God is really dividing people up into groups and telling one to fight and kill another, he is not a good God. That is the behavior of a tyrant.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 07:11 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The question is whether God is an asshole. This is different from the question of whether he exists or not.

I am pleasantly surprised that your experience includes this question. It only occurs to those who have lost all reasons to doubt his existence.

Quote:
If God is really dividing people up into groups and telling one to fight and kill another, he is not a good God. That is the behavior of a tyrant.
It depends on what you regard as 'good'.
Then there is the factor of death being a 'relative' thing. As Paul said, 'they only sleep'. But if you think it’s 'the end', it looks different.

How do you view 'death'?

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 08:22 am
@Leadfoot,
The only definition of "death" that makes any sense to me is the biological one. It means the cessation of biological processes. I can run tests to tell the difference between an alive chicken and a dead chicken and I have a good mental model on the meaning of the chicken being alive and what I can expect will result from that condition.

If you want to provide another definition that makes any sense and is testable I would be interested to hear it.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 09:03 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I am pleasantly surprised that your experience includes this question. It only occurs to those who have lost all reasons to doubt his existence.


Your logic here is demonstrably incorrect.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 10:54 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Your logic here is demonstrably incorrect.

Then you made a misleading statement when you open with 'the question is whether God is an asshole or not.'
That question is of no consequence to someone who thinks he isn’t real.
You are either inexact or dissimulating.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 10:57 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The only definition of "death" that makes any sense to me is the biological one.

So you were just trolling. No problem.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 11:43 am
@Leadfoot,
You think anyone who questions your belief is "trolling"?

If you are going to use a term like "death" in a way that isn't the normal scientific meaning... you are going to have to define it. What do you mean by "death"?

I think I am asking a fair question.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 01:46 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
If you are going to use a term like "death" in a way that isn't the normal scientific meaning... you are going to have to define it.
You want me to stick to scientific definitions in a discussion about religion and the Bible.

Yes, you’re trolling.

You are welcome to question my theological or biological beliefs all you want. But it is not a fair question to demand biological answers/definitions to a theological question, or vice verses.

I did give you the theological definition of death. It seemed appropriate to the thread.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 02:14 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Interesting discussion.

It illustrates what I see as the 'basic divide' between two world views.

I don't think the 'Chosen People' has anything to do with genetics or ancestry. I suppose eventually there might be a genetic diversion but that would be incidental, depending on your starting assumptions.

Either there was a God who could choose or there wasn't.

I would hope God would not make his choices solely based on ancestry and genetics. I think Adolf did it that way.

I don't know anything about any choice by God.

I'm just interested in knowing what really happened back then.

I guess I have an interest in both the far future and the far past as best they can be reliably determined. That's why I also jump into threads about whether humanity will survive the death of our sun, and then eventually (if we're still around) survive the point where there is no more fuel to make new stars and the existing stars burn out.

I do hope that there is a pleasant afterlife waiting for good people after they die, and if there is a God I welcome any help from him/her on that front. But I take an agnostic view towards this. I neither believe nor disbelieve. I merely hope.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 02:15 pm
@Leadfoot,
If you don't define the words you are using, then any discussion is meaningless. Fine.. forget "scientific". You are using the word "death" in a way that makes no sense in any common use of the word.

My daughter sleeps every night. She keeps breathing. Her heart keeps pumping. Most importantly she wakes up in the morning (at which point she is no longer asleep). My grandmother died. I was there. I felt her get cold and I saw her stop breathing. She was dead. Maybe the instant her brain stopped working some ethereal being with her essence sprung into existance. Even if this is the case, my statement that "my grandmother is dead" is completely correct.

When you are sleeping you are not dead. When you are dead, you are not sleeping.

Now of course you can use a metaphor. Death is a banana. But if I don't explain to you what it means for death to be a banana, it is simply nonsense.

You asked me what death means to me. I gave you a simple, straightforward answer that makes sense. Death is the cessation of biological processes. You then say I am trolling.

You have so far failed to say anything about death that makes any sense. Maybe it is you who are trolling.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 05:31 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I felt her get cold and I saw her stop breathing. She was dead. Maybe the instant her brain stopped working some ethereal being with her essence sprung into existance.
I don’t for a minute believe you are intellectually incapable of understanding Paul's metaphor of 'sleep' I quoted from the Bible.
Either you are pretending not to know that the book says we exist on more levels than just the material, or you are Trolling.

There is one other possibility I have considered in the past. In Genesis it says that it was not until after God made Adam that he breathed his spirit into him. Maybe he does not do that in every instance. Therefore, you might be just a different species of animal, as you claim. If so, I have no argument with your belief about 'death'.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 05:49 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I'm just interested in knowing what really happened back then.
It was my interest in that past that led me to study biology. I had no idea at the time that it would end up convincing me of a 'God'. Not that I didn’t think there was one already, but that was for very different reasons.

Between the two types of evidence, I no longer have the choice to believe. I couldn’t not believe anymore than I could 'not believe' in gravity.
 

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