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Church vs Bible, What to believe?

 
 
papag
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 05:17 am
Church: "the soul is immortal"
Bible: (Ezekiel 18:4) The soul who sins is the one who will die.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all

Church: "Jesus is God"
Bible: (Matthew 3:17) Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
(Matthew 16:16) Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Church: "the earth will be destroyed"
Bible: (Psalm 104:5) He has established the earth on its foundations; It will not be moved from its place forever and ever
(Ecclesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming, But the earth remains forever.
(Matthew 5:5) “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 05:48 am
Science shows that the sun has a finite lifespan. After that, the earth will either be cold and dead, or it will have been swallowed by the sun in its red giant phase.

And even if we expand and migrate to other places in the galaxy, time will eventually run out for our physical existence. Eventually the fuel to make new stars will be exhausted, and the existing stars will burn out. We might survive in a dark universe for a long time by using fission and fusion reactors, but one day we will run out of fuel.

So, yes, the platform for mankind's physical existence will one day be destroyed.

As for whether our self/soul/whatever continues after we die, and what the nature of that existence is if anything, unfortunately no one knows the answer to that.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 07:16 am
Then there is that bit about a 'New Heaven and a New Earth'.
So who knows what laws of physics apply. The value of 'G' is so critical to 'this' earth and cosmos, maybe entropy runs backwards in the new. Even Biology makes it run backwards in this old one.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 07:54 am
@papag,
So my thoughts -

The Church is kind trying to help you interpret the Bible. It really is not really vs. the church is simply interpreting the Bible differently than it appears you are.

So say for instance the first item - you can look at what this one sentence in many ways:

Literally - you will die because you sin or it is your soul will die because of your sin.

Then there is what is the Bible really trying to teach you - I kind of look at this way - every time you sin - it kills a little bit of your soul...sort of like every time you do something harmful - it hurts you deep inside.

You also need to read what is stated around that as sometimes it gives you more insight.

The soul is immortal - means you body dies, but your soul still remains - I bet there are passages in the Bible that you can find that supports that.

You can also ask your minister to help you interpret these parts of the Bible if you are having difficulty with them.

Not saying the Church is right - but my thoughts are that the church is following their understanding of scripture. They may not get it right all the time - I mean the church is just made up of people who are imperfect.

I think that is why there are so many churches - so many different interpretations of the same words. Makes reading the Bible interesting as long as you are open and willing to listen to different thoughts.

The churches I prefer are the ones that even if they have a certain belief overall do not take the stance that your interpretations are incorrect - or look down upon you because you read it differently; they may debate but are respectful of different thoughts.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 08:28 am
@Linkat,
Quote:
The churches I prefer are the ones that even if they have a certain belief overall do not take the stance that your interpretations are incorrect - or look down upon you because you read it differently; they may debate but are respectful of different thoughts.
I looked long and hard for a church like you described but it was a fruitless search. The only one I wasn’t ‘excommunicated' from was the ' Unity' church.

But it is very unsatisfying in that they had virtually no foundation, no reasoning, and no questioning of Anything. You want to believe you are being targeted with mind attacks by alien lizard people ? This, or anything else you want to posit is fine by them. And they will be fully 'accepting' of you.
But a nicer bunch of people you’ll never find.
papag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 09:31 am
@oralloy,
So the Church does agree with science, interesting.
0 Replies
 
papag
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 09:40 am
@Leadfoot,
The New English Bible renders Psalm 96:1: “Sing to the LORD, all men on earth.” The Contemporary English Version reads: “Everyone on this earth, sing praises to the LORD.” This accords with the understanding that by “new earth” Isaiah was referring to God’s people in their land.

The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, states: “Wherever the scene of a prophetic vision is laid, heaven signifies . . . the whole assembly of the ruling powers . . . being over and ruling the subjects, as the natural heaven stands over and rules the earth.” As to the combination phrase “heaven and earth,” the Cyclopædia explains that ‘in prophetic language the phrase signifies the political condition of persons of different ranks. The heaven is the sovereignty; the earth is the peasantry, men who are ruled by superiors.’

A new heaven and new earth signifies a new ruling power ( God's Kingdom) and a new earth represents a cleansed society that submitted to such rulership and helped to reestablish pure worship in the land.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 09:55 am
@papag,
Quote:
The New English Bible renders Psalm 96:1: “Sing to the LORD, all men on earth.” The Contemporary English Version reads: “Everyone on this earth, sing praises to the LORD.” This accords with the understanding that by “new earth” Isaiah was referring to God’s people in their land.
It’s the words to a song man. I can’t make literal claims based on that. Songs are supposed to get you 'up', in the spirit of worship, enthusiastic, sing about things as you want them to be. Yeah, I’d like everyone on earth to sing his praises, but you know that ain’t gonna happen. 'He' said so in other verses that WERE meant literally.

I’d like to buy the world a coke..

Then there is that Heaven thing. I want THAT. But it would be cool to revisit earth for the nostalgia. There can be pleasure even in looking back at hell on earth, without all the crowds, and knowing it’s over.
papag
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 09:58 am
@Linkat,
Nowhere does the Bible teach an immortal soul, something that lives on after death.
The fact that the church teaches the immortal soul is evident in another false teaching, Hellfire. Hellfire is a fourth century invention of the church because they had no answer to the question "where will the bad immortal souls go if not heaven?" Thus the invention of and eternal place of torment.

The bible does give hope for the ones that have died, it's the resurrection but that's still in the future.
The Apostle Paul said these words: (Acts 24:15) And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous

Why would we need a resurrection if in a sense we don't die or something keeps on living after death.
papag
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 10:10 am
@Leadfoot,
That's the way the Bible was written. Man doesn't have the ability to interpret the Bible so we let the Bible interpret itself.
Example: (Revelation 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.

(the sea is no more) what does it mean after John see the new heaven and new earth?
Let the Bible answer: (Isaiah 57:20) “But the wicked are like the restless sea that cannot calm down, And its waters keep tossing up seaweed and mire.

So what will be gone after the new heaven and new earth, the wicked.
Let the Bible confirm it: (Psalm 37:10, 11) Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 10:18 am
@papag,
The book itself tells us that the Bible is good and instructive, but it says the Spirit is what will lead you to all truth, not the book.

We are all individually responsible for hearing the spirit and know where it is from.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 10:20 am
@papag,
Do you believe that giant seven headed dragons exist? (Revelations 13)
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 10:53 am
@Leadfoot,
Have you tried a Congregational Church - they are very open minded.

I actually am attending a church that is somewhat conservative. The minister actually says - I believe xyz- however, we need to be open to accepting everyone even those that may believe otherwise, and he points out how Jesus usually would accept those that seemed most "sinful" - than those that tout they are Christ like.

Funny/ironic those that tout they are all Christ like are actually sinning being not so humble and lifting their noses at those that are open of themselves.
papag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 05:36 pm
@maxdancona,
Many Bible readers forget about this important clue.
The Bible tells us what is literal and what is symbolic.

(Revelation 1:1) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,

These prophecies were presented to Apostle John in signs or symbols.
Believe me, the Bible tells you what is literal and what is symbolic.
Man has the tendencies to make their own conclusions.
0 Replies
 
papag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 05:49 pm
@Leadfoot,
You are right about the spirit but that spirit is not what the church teaches. The church teach the spirit to be a ghost or a person.
The spirit is God's active force.
(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

When it says that all scriptures is inspired of God, this tells us that God's spirit is active in the scriptures.

What's inspired mean?
adjective. aroused, animated, or imbued with the spirit to do something, by or as if by supernatural or divine influence.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2021 07:14 pm
Papag, let me get serious here.

Everything thing you are saying is meaningless. Whether the "soul is imortal" makes no difference at all to my daily life. It is belly button gazing on the most usless level. And why would I care if the Earth will last forever. Either I have eternal life or I don't... if I do, I will be happy whereever that is. If I am not there, than I will never care or know the answer.

If you are going to spread your view of religion, then why not talk about things that actually matter. How do you propose we help migrants, or help end racism, or just get people to treat each other better?

These mindless arguments about things that don't matter at all are kind of silly. That is why no one is taking them seriously.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2021 05:33 am
@Linkat,
Quote:
Have you tried a Congregational Church - they are very open minded.
There isn't one within a Sunday morning drive for me but I did visit one years ago with a group of others. We were going to hear a guest speaker (can’t remember name) but I was very impressed with what he said. I didn’t go back because his message was almost universally rejected. I say that based on occasional negative murmurings from the congregation during his talk. I felt guilty for not talking to him afterwards and I saw him standing all alone, but I was with a group and they had to leave right away. None of my group had anything to say, they obviously did not hear the same message I did. Such has been my experience everywhere.
0 Replies
 
papag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2021 05:49 am
@maxdancona,
I understand, most of us are looking for a better future and satisfying solutions to the world problems that you mentioned. Helping migrants, or helping end racism, or just get people to treat each other better, most of us want to change things but everytime we try doesn't work. We don't need a bandage, we need a cure.
You tell me, what do you think of a global government that will treat everyone equally. A government that will provide it's people with satisfying work, homes and good health. A government that will restore earth's beauty and protect the animals A government that will eliminate diseases and all kinds of sickness, it will also eliminate crime and violence. It will cure everyone who is suffering now and will bring back all our love ones back to life on earth.

That's what the Bible teaches and sadly, it's not what the church teach.
I don't make this up!
We have tried everything to establish peace and security, so why not give the Bible a chance, NOT CHURCHES RELIGION,
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2021 06:09 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
How do you propose we help migrants, or help end racism, or just get people to treat each other better?

These mindless arguments about things that don't matter at all are kind of silly.
These 'silly arguments' are exactly what the world needs to address the problems you mention. Most just don’t get the therapeutic dose necessary for recovery. Or they do not have ears to receive them.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2021 06:19 am
@papag,
Quote:
Why would we need a resurrection if in a sense we don't die or something keeps on living after death.
Paul explained it with two words. First he said “I would not have you ignorant concerning death.” Then he said:

“They sleep.”
 

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