Frustrated Clean Freak

Showdown--

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars or in the poster of A2K, but in ourselves.



Unfortunately, you applied some advice in a way that didn't work.

Remember, you profess to be seeking order, not dominance.

Were any of those dirty dishes dirtied by you?

Mine are either in the dishwasher or rinsed and waiting to be placed in the dishwasher.

Hers are covered in days-old crusty food.

Showdown--

I have several projects that must be accomplished today, so this posting will be brief. If you're still interested, I will be back.

Five months into your marriage your marriage has two problems. The first is your wife's indifference to mess. The second (which is growing) is your resentment of your wife's indifference to mess.

Her indifference and your resentment are separate problems--either one of which can taint love and destroy the marriage.

I will be back.

Showdown, I'd tell Noddy you want her to come back and expand. She's right on the money.

And, it's been said here before - you want a compromise, that means you have to give too. Have you thought about trying to desensitize yourself from messy chaos? Just a thought.

I am a slob, I do what I can to keep the common areas of my 3-person apartment clean. I have a cat, a dog, and my neice and nephew to help make messes. We three housemates (not neice and nephew, by the way) do a little cleaning everyday (me more so because I have the messiest lifestyle by far) and we wash stuff once a week. Or at least that's what we agreed to do. Sometmes we do it, sometimes we don't.

Perhaps you could introduce a written simple (SIMPLE) list of things you see as neccessary cleaning rituals. Or, make a simple list of the cleaning you do each day or weekly. Maybe she hates to do dishes, but loves to do laundry? Could you wash all the disghes if she did all the laundry?

First off, I appreciate the advice but the tone of advice is starting to sound like impending doom. Our marriage is strong and if I were to pick any of the horrible things people fight about, this is rather simple and petty. It drives me crazy but our tempers are what blows these things out of proportion.



I believe it could be boiled down to one problem; my resentment of her indifference to my feelings.

You could pick any other problem and substitute it in place of the kitchen mess. My real problem is that she doesn't respect my feelings and that drives me even more crazy than the stress generated by the mess.

I have some sympathy - I'd probably be nuts over encrusted dishes too, even though I have been known to have a hell of a messy kitchen.

I guess I'm musing about territory, territorial changes, and timing matters. Left on her own, did she ever clean her own place? I just visited my niece (17) and her dad in my olde home town, and I heard from dad that she cleaned her bedroom for the first time in a year for my visit (for me?). She has bounced between mom and dad for years, and mom, who just died, was - oh, never mind. But she really didn't have a space there.

Interesting parallel, in that dad is not only very tidy, he is monastically spare in worldly goods. You could say cheap too, but that is not quite right. He prefers clean space. The living room, for example, has in it - one bicycle, and three of my old paintings. That's all. No furniture, rugs, etc. So her room is her haven and she has been recalcitrant to his ideas of tidyness in it. I'd think the paintings might have been put there in the living room for my visit, but they are in exactly the same place they were when I was in that room four years ago.

Er, not that you are as tidy as my exbro in law, showdown. I'm just musing about dynamics of power and space and time - versus natural tendencies.

She was messy before you met her. Was she not respecting your feelings?

She was messy before you married. Was she not respecting your feelings?

Essentially, you're saying, "Order is important to me. Change what you are to show your love for me."

She's saying, "Messy is what I am. Change what you are to show your love for me."

I'm very glad the two of you have a solid marriage. Obviously you are going to have to work out an agreement and then follow that agreement.

Yeah.

I understand what you're getting at, showdown. Meanwhile, the perception of indifference to feelings thing goes both ways. That's the problem when it's so zero sum, clean or dirty. She doesn't want to clean the way you want her to. Your willingness to pursue to the point of boxing dishes and putting them in the garage is indifference to her feelings... see?

That's why I think the thing to do (and again I think this is eminently resolvable) is get it out of zero sum territory. There are many varieties of cleaning. Littlek asked a good question that I don't think you've answered -- would you be OK if she did all the laundry and you did all the dishes? If not, why not?

("Yeah" was to Osso, Noddy was writing at the same time. I agree with Noddy as well, though. Compromise does not mean "do it my way," it means, "I'll give up this, you give up that, I gain this, you gain that." And talking is the way to get there.)

I know your wife doesnt wash her dishes for days.But would she gladly make you cup of hot tea ad do more than her usual share of chores - when you have a cold? If your answer is yes, then you dont have a problem.

Cleaner people end up doing more work around the house. If you dont want to do the extra work - just live with the mess...i do. I'm not really a cleanliness freak - but i keep everything clean and orderly. My husband does not. He throws unwashed clothes on the bedroom floor (ugh!!!). I dont pick it up - i have told him once where unwashed clothes should be. But he stil throws clothes around - i dont bother. i just live with it.

I think it's only fair to let your wife live the way she wants to. Even if it means your house no longer being the clean place it sed to be. As you yourself said, it's a small, petty matter. Which is precisely why im telling you to live with ur wife's mess. dont clean it up either - thats'll spoil her. just ignore it. she will clean it up at her own pace - wash her dishes after 15 days? Let her do it. Might work. Good luck.



I'm not sure if it works for you. Just my point of view

Just had a little more time to read these posts a little more carefully.

I hope this exerpt from "The Prophet" will put your 'troubles in perspective...

When love beckons to you, follow him,
Though his ways are hard and steep.
And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you,
And when he speaks to you believe in him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.
For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.
Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,
So shall he descend to your roots and shake them clinging to the earth.
Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.
He threshes you to make you naked.
He sifts you to free you from your husks.
He grinds you to whiteness.
He kneads you until you are pliant;
And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.
All these things shall love do to unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.
But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.
Love gives naught, but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Loves possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.
When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather. "I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worth, directs your course.
Love has no other desire but to fulfill itself.
But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:
To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.
To know the pain of too much tenderness.
To be wounded by your own understanding of love;
And to bleed willingly and joyfully,
To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;
To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;
To return home at eventide with a gratitude;
And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.

Kahlil Gibran, the Prophet, published by Alfred A. Knopf, 1964

Love is not for wusses Showdown.

Sit with your beloved tonight and read this aloud with her.

You have spoken of threats, indifference, confrontation.

The strength of marriage comes from yielding, embracing and fully giving yourself up to each other. It does not come from arguing about a few dirty dishes.

Go to Walmart and buy some heavy duty paper plates and disposable glasses and silverware.

its obvious your wife does not respect you ,i think it starts in the bedroom you need to show her who the boss is.if you can not sexualy conquor her she will remain disrespectful to you ,she is being a slob to get even with your lack of giving her what she needs physically.so either put a smile on her face or dump her.

Actually Showdown, the post the yuletide made has completely changed my mind. What WAS I thinking?

Drag her into the kitchen, bend her over the sink and give her what for.

All she need is a chain on her leg long enough to reach from the stove to the bed.

It usually takes one major incident (like throwing out the dirty dishes or the clothes on the floor) before a couple finds common ground and resolves the problem.

Oh Chai, you do make me chuckle!

What a dolt.

All great advice.

We have since sat down and re-organized a schedule (for the 3rd or 4th time, not sure) and it seems to be working.

It all boils down to communication. We are both extremely quick-tempered and argumentative. That was getting in the way of having a calm conversation about what each of us wanted and were willing to do, and as a result, our kitchen has stayed spotless for the 4th day.

And for good measure, I bent her over the sink and gave her a good dose of what cures her. Better safe than sorry, eh?

I'm in for a long relationship filled with fights and battles, just because of our personalities. The lesson to be learned always is how to communicate past our shouting and find a working resolution.

Showdown,

i am very happy to hear that things are working for the better for you!

one big thing we learned, when we get mad at each other to the point we are yelling, we both walk away, take some time to settle down, and come back and talk like adults. it is amazing that after only 5 minutes of sitting there thinking about what we are actually really mad about, we realize it isn't what we were fighting about, but something else completely and it is stupid.

then i bend him over the sink and give him a good dose! just kidding, really.

good luck! may the best of your past, be the worst of your future!

Showdown--

Congratulations--and best wishes.