16
   

Monitoring Biden and other Contemporary Events

 
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 09:52 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
It's because of America's fetishisation of free speech.




Wrong. It's that a large group of some Americans who misunderstand what "free speech" means.

It's not the freedom to say anything one wants: it's the freedom to say it without prior restraint. After the speech was freely made, ones gets to deal with fallout. There's no law against yelling "fire!" in a crowded movie theater, but there are laws about causing panic. Or libel, violence, violent overthrow of the government, hate speech, etc.

Free speech is the right say what you want without being arrested before you actually say it.

Most of the amendments are about due process and equal access at their core. Also remember one of the biggest right guaranteed by the First Amendment Right to Free Speech is freedom of religion as well as protection from a state church. That newspapers and books have the right to publish news without prior censorship.

Another example of misunderstanding a Constitutional Right is the Second Amendment Right to Bear Arms.

This was not about giving everyone a firearm. It was about not keeping specific classes of American from serving in the armed forces. Equal access, again. The problem is that no one remembers, unless you were outside of cities, you did not keep a flintlock over the fireplace, you kept it in a town armory. You with drew it to exercise with the town or local militia (because the US did not have much of standing army till the Civil War) or went hunting.
tsarstepan
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 10:16 am
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 11:21 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Apparently Liz Truss is attending a meeting of American Fascists.

She has told CPAC that her premiership was a total disaster because she was thwarted by the "Deep State"

Yeah. I saw that. And as noted in the Guardian
Quote:
In an opinion piece published on the Fox News website, the former prime minister said agents of “the left” are active in the administrative state and “the deep state”.

“I saw this for myself first hand as they sabotaged my efforts in Britain to cut taxes, reduce the size of government and restore democratic accountability,” she wrote.

Same playbook. And as I've mentioned previously, the Conservative Party here is duplicating it as well.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 11:22 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Apparently Liz Truss is attending a meeting of American Fascists.

She has told CPAC that her premiership was a total disaster because she was thwarted by the "Deep State"

Truss is the worst prime minister in History. Her incompetence was so great it verged on treason.

The national debt doubled overnight and Britain's longest serving monarch died after clasping eyes on her.

She is the greatest failure ever, she was kicked out by common sense and market forces.

And the fact she failed to reintroduce Feudalism is something we should be grateful for.



All around good post, Izzy, but the bolded part truly is classic. My congratulations.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 11:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
Thank you.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 11:55 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:


Free speech is the right say what you want without being arrested before you actually say it.


That's what it is over here, unfetishised.

The fetishised version gives hate speech protection and makes no distinction between truth and lies.

Btw, we had freedom of religion along with the Glorious Revolution back in 1688 established church or no.
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 12:01 pm
@Frank Apisa,
In the future Liz Truss willbe remembered for being pm when the Queen died.

She's a quiz question, a did you know factoid.

Much like Spencer Percival who is remembered for being the only pm who was assassinated and nothing else.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 12:35 pm
The Unlikely Birth of Free Speech

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. created our modern understanding of the First Amendment.

Quote:
For all the horrors that marked 1919 in America — the race riots, the terrorist attacks, the labor unrest — there was one unquestionably positive development. On Nov. 10, a hundred years ago Sunday, Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes issued a remarkable opinion that gave birth to our modern understanding of free speech.

It was a complicated delivery. Despite its centrality to our culture today, the First Amendment in the early 20th century was largely a dead letter. The Supreme Court had never upheld a free speech claim, and lower courts had approved the censorship of books and films, the prohibition of street-corner speeches and bans on labor protests and profanity. Even criticism of the government could be punished, the courts had ruled, if it threatened public order and morality.

The low point was World War I. Two months after declaring war, Congress passed the Espionage Act, which made it a crime to obstruct the draft or cause insubordination in the military. A year later, it passed the Sedition Act, outlawing any speech that the authorities deemed “disloyal” or “scurrilous,” as well as any speech intended to encourage resistance to the war, curtail the production of arms or obstruct the sale of war bonds.

Federal prosecutors vigorously enforced these acts, bringing nearly 2,000 indictments, many on the thinnest of pretexts. One person was convicted for forwarding a chain letter that called for an immediate end to the war. Another was jailed for asserting that the war benefited capitalists. And the courts largely acquiesced, ruling that the First Amendment offered no protection for speech with a “bad tendency” — essentially, any speech the government disliked.

The suppression continued after the war, as the fear of German sympathizers was transformed into a fear of Bolshevists. Congress allocated half a million dollars to investigate seditious activities. In the fall of 1919, Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer ordered a series of raids on the homes and workplaces of Russian immigrants. And a Senate committee released a list of 62 “radicals” who were said to be enemies of the state, including such respected figures as the social reformer Jane Addams, the historian Charles Beard and Frederic Howe, the commissioner of immigration at Ellis Island.

It was in the midst of this hysteria that Holmes breathed new life into the First Amendment. He was an unlikely midwife. Holmes, 78 at the time, was descended from one of the oldest families in America. He was a graduate of Harvard Law School, a veteran of the Civil War and a member of the intellectual aristocracy that his father, a famous author, had labeled the “Brahmin caste of New England.” More to the point, he had done as much as any judge to render free speech meaningless.

As a state court judge in Massachusetts, he had ruled that there is no right to speak on public property or while working as a public employee. And after joining the United States Supreme Court, in 1902, he had embraced the cramped English view that free speech protects only against prior censorship but places no limits on the government’s power to punish speakers after the fact.

These rulings reflected Holmes’s long-held belief that free speech was “logically indefensible” — that just as government should be permitted to punish actions that cause harm, so it should be permitted to punish words that cause harm. But his indifference to free speech also stemmed from a deeper commitment to majority rule and judicial restraint. Holmes believed that the majority, acting through its elected representatives, should be allowed to pursue whatever policies it wanted. And he, as an unelected judge, had no business standing in the way. “If my fellow citizens want to go to hell, I will help them,” he liked to say. “It’s my job.”

But the events of 1919 changed Holmes. A contrarian with a love of books and a fondness for debate, he was troubled by the wave of persecution that swept the country once the dangers of war had passed. He was especially troubled when that wave threatened to engulf two of his own friends, a legal scholar named Felix Frankfurter and a British political theorist named Harold Laski.

Frankfurter and Laski would later achieve their own fame: Frankfurter was appointed to the Supreme Court in 1939, and Laski was elected chairman of England’s Labour Party at the end of World War II. But in 1919, they were young academics (Frankfurter was 37, Laski 26) still making names for themselves. They were also part of a circle of younger intellectuals who worshiped Holmes for his willingness to uphold progressive labor legislation despite his own doubts about the wisdom of such laws. This circle, which included two of the founding editors of The New Republic, Herbert Croly and Walter Lippmann, published tributes to Holmes, feted him with parties and dinners, and passed around his opinions like sacred texts.

Holmes was buoyed by the admiration of these acolytes, believing he was finally receiving the recognition he had long desired as nothing less than the “greatest jurist in the world.” He also developed a genuine affection for the “young lads,” as he called them, treating Frankfurter and Laski like the sons he never had.

So when the two men came under attack for their “radical” views — Frankfurter for his support of labor unions, Laski for his socialist leanings — Holmes sprang to their defense. He wrote to the president of Harvard, where both men taught, and sought help from the Harvard Law School alumni association.

He also began to rethink his stance on the First Amendment, an endeavor his young friends encouraged. For more than a year, they waged an intense behind-the-scenes campaign to strengthen Holmes’s appreciation for free speech. They fed him books on political liberalism, wrote him long letters on the value of tolerance and engaged him in impassioned debates. At one point, Laski even arranged a meeting at his summer bungalow between Holmes and Zechariah Chafee, a Harvard law professor who had written an article criticizing the justice’s views. “You won’t forget that you are coming down on Saturday for the week-end,” Laski wrote Chafee. “Holmes is coming to tea, and I want you to arrive in good time. For I have given him your article and we must fight on it.”

Holmes did not change his mind all at once. In March 1919, he wrote three opinions for the court upholding the convictions of socialists for criticizing the war. These opinions hinted at an internal struggle. Holmes retreated from his earlier belief that free speech protects only against prior restraints. And he rejected the “bad tendency” test, writing that speech can be punished only if it poses a “clear and present danger.” But he failed to explain how the defendants’ speech met that test, falling back instead on his commitment to majority rule and judicial restraint.

Eight months later, when the court heard another case under the Espionage and Sedition acts, Holmes’s conversion was complete. By this point, Laski was in serious trouble, having spoken out in support of a labor strike by Boston police officers. The strike was a disaster; with no officers on duty, the city descended into chaos, and the soldiers who were brought in to restore order killed eight people. Laski’s support for the strike thus won him the enmity of the entire New England establishment. The press denounced him as an “boudoir Bolshevist,” while the Harvard Board of Overseers opened an investigation to determine whether he was fit to teach.

It was against this backdrop that Holmes wrote his famous defense of free speech. A majority of the court voted to uphold the latest convictions under the Espionage and Sedition acts. But Holmes, joined by his close friend Justice Louis Brandeis, dissented. Acknowledging the appeal of persecution, which he had once himself embraced, he now offered a powerful rebuttal:

But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas — that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out.

With those words, Holmes provided a justification for free speech that fit with his conception of democracy. We should protect speech not to promote the liberty of the individual over the interests of the majority. We should protect speech because doing so promotes the collective interest — in other words, the interests of us all.

Holmes’s young friends were elated. Viewing his opinion not just as a defense of free speech but also as a defense of them, they wrote one by one to express their gratitude and to predict that his dissent would one day prevail.

They were right. Although Holmes was in the minority, the power of his words and the force of his personality gave his opinion an authority beyond the usual judicial dissent. Civil libertarians soon embraced it as an article of faith, and ultimately the rest of the country did, too.

That didn’t happen overnight — the second Red Scare and McCarthyism were still to come. And Holmes was not the only person responsible for the development; Brandeis wrote several eloquent opinions defending free speech, and the contributions of lawyers and scholars such as Chafee were invaluable. But it was the figure of Holmes, the old soldier and enlightened aristocrat, who gave the movement its legitimacy and inspiration. And by the late 1960s, his tribute to “free trade in ideas,” along with his insistence that speech can be punished only if it poses a “clear and present danger,” had become not only cultural catchphrases but the law of the land.

Holmes’s dissent did not answer all the questions about free speech. His market metaphor has sparked intense disagreement about the extent to which laissez-faire economic principles should guide First Amendment law. The public reaction to the Supreme Court’s decision in Citizens United, which struck down a ban on corporate campaign spending, is the most prominent example of that dispute.

Holmes himself would have been distressed to see his metaphor taken literally. In another famous dissent, he explained that “general propositions do not decide concrete cases,” by which he meant that the law is not a game of logic in which judges reason abstractly from some “articulate major premise.” Decisions, he believed, depend on “more subtle” intuitions and judgments that are informed by experience.

But whatever one thinks of the market metaphor, Holmes’s conversion offers a valuable lesson in our own time of discord. It illustrates the power of free and fearless debate to change the course of history — and the importance of a judiciary willing to protect our most fundamental rights.

nyt
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 01:06 pm
@hightor,
Freedom of expression was actually already known in ancient Greece.
In the Roman Empire too - until Christianity became the state religion: the Roman Church now suppressed political statements that questioned its claim to absoluteness.

This did not change in Europe until the French Revolution.

However, this change . which included the seperation of state and church . has not yet completely reached all parts of the USA, otherwise how could the Chief Justice of a Supreme Court write:
Quote:
"Human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God," he wrote in a concurring opinion that invoked the Book of Genesis and the prophet Jeremiah and quoted at length from the writings of 16th- and 17th-century theologians.
"Even before birth," he added, "all human beings have the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory."
NYT
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 02:11 pm
@izzythepush,
We were talking about how some Americans fetishize their misunderstanding of 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. I do not feel qualified to compare that to the rights that British citizens have.

I honestly have no idea what misunderstood parts of their rights Brits have that they fetishize. I bet everything over there is homogenized and everybody agrees about everything.
blatham
 
  5  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 02:14 pm
@hightor,
That's an excellent piece. The graph I find particularly suited to how I think of this issue of free speech is this one, and it is so well stated.
Quote:
Holmes himself would have been distressed to see his metaphor taken literally. In another famous dissent, he explained that “general propositions do not decide concrete cases,” by which he meant that the law is not a game of logic in which judges reason abstractly from some “articulate major premise.” Decisions, he believed, depend on “more subtle” intuitions and judgments that are informed by experience.

This is why I am not a free speech absolutist. Absolutism always feels clean and pure, the surest defense against the dross and defects of human minds. But such absolutisms can also be just lazy. That's Elon Musk's failing and it can do great damage.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 02:36 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Well done, Walter.
Quote:
However, this change . which included the seperation of state and church . has not yet completely reached all parts of the USA

Far too few recognize how close America is to becoming a theocratic regime and what the consequences of this will mean to peoples' lives.
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 02:45 pm
I won't hold back on this. I hate Republicans. I've been calling out conservatives at able2know for parroting and amplifying Russian misinformation for years. Conservatives in the US are just puppets for Putin in his effort to destabilize the west (especially the United States).
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 03:10 pm
@tsarstepan,
You're absolutely right, of course.

For instance the Kremlin actively distributed the really early videos that Navalny made when he was an anti-Muslim nationalist in order to damage his reputation and, sure enough, someone on this site was quick to post a "balanced view", ending with the rhetorical question, "Why does the US get into business with so many Nazis?"
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 03:30 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

We were talking about how some Americans fetishize their misunderstanding of 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. I do not feel qualified to compare that to the rights that British citizens have.

I honestly have no idea what misunderstood parts of their rights Brits have that they fetishize. I bet everything over there is homogenized and everybody agrees about everything.


https://www.vice.com/en/article/kwpvax/will-self-charlie-hebdo-attack-the-west-satire-france-terror-105

This article by Will Self makes the argument far more eloquently than me.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 04:18 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
someone on this site was quick to post a "balanced view"

That phrasing was vaguely familiar, wasn't it.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 07:44 pm
Political Goals: Heritage Foundation
- Ban birth control pills.
- End recreational sex.

Quote:
Heritage Foundation@Heritage
May 27, 2023

"It seems to me that a good place to start would be a feminist movement against the pill, & for... returning the consequentiality to sex."

Conservatives have to lead the way in restoring sex to its true purpose, & ending recreational sex & senseless use of birth control pills.
Video Here
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  5  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 08:03 pm

Fetterman to Democrats who criticize Biden: "Might as well just get your MAGA hat, because you now are helping Trump."

Sen. John Fetterman (D-PA) said Democrats who publicly criticize President Joe Biden may as well put on a MAGA hat.

In a conversation about the role Pennsylvania will play in the upcoming election as one of the major battleground states on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” Thursday, Fetterman took aim at some of his fellow Democrats for their lack of support for the president.

“It’s going to be very competitive,” Fetterman said about 2024. “The president is going to win here in Pennsylvania. And I’ve always believed that whoever wins Pennsylvania is going to be the next president as well.”

“It’s going to be difficult,” the senator continued. “We all have to lean in on that.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fetterman-democrats-criticize-biden-might-142355892.html
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 08:31 pm
Marjorie Taylor Greene 🇺🇸
@mtgreenee

Judge Engeron should be disrobed and thrown out, he’s a disgrace!!

Mar-a-lago in 1981 was only a home, today it is one of the most exclusive social clubs in the world.

Mar-a-lago is worth more now than the ridiculous judgement he ruled against Pres Trump!
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Fri 23 Feb, 2024 04:43 am
Quote:
The Alabama Supreme Court on February 16, 2024, decided that cells awaiting implantation for in vitro fertilization are children and that the accidental destruction of such an embryo falls under the state’s Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. In an opinion concurring with the ruling, Chief Justice Tom Parker declared that the people of Alabama have adopted the “theologically based view of the sanctity of life” and said that “human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God.”

Payton Armstrong of media watchdog Media Matters for America reported today that on the same day the Alabama decision came down, an interview Parker did on the program of a self-proclaimed “prophet” and Q-Anon conspiracy theorist appeared. In it, Parker claimed that “God created government” and called it “heartbreaking” that “we have let it go into the possession of others.”

Parker referred to the “Seven Mountain Mandate,” a theory that appeared in 1975, which claims that Christians must take over the “seven mountains” of U.S. life: religion, family, education, media, entertainment, business…and government. He told his interviewer that “we’ve abandoned those Seven Mountains and they’ve been occupied by the other side.” God “is calling and equipping people to step back into these mountains right now,” he said.

While Republicans are split on the decision about embryos after a number of hospitals have ended their popular IVF programs out of fear of prosecution, others, like Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley agreed that “embryos, to me, are babies.”

House speaker Mike Johnson (R-LA) identifies himself as a Christian, has argued that the United States is a Christian nation, and has called for “biblically sanctioned government.” At a retreat of Republican leaders this weekend, as the country is grappling with both the need to support Ukraine and the need to fund the government, he tried to rally the attendees with what some called a “sermon” arguing that the Republican Party needed to save the country from its lack of morality.

As Charles Blow of the New York Times put it: “If you don’t think this country is sliding toward theocracy, you’re not paying attention.”

In the United States, theocracy and authoritarianism go hand in hand.

The framers of the Constitution quite deliberately excluded religion from the U.S. Constitution. As a young man, James Madison, the key thinker behind the Constitution, had seen his home state of Virginia arrest itinerant preachers for undermining the established church in the state. He came to believe that men had a right to the free exercise of religion.

In 1785, in a “Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments,” he explained that what was at stake was not just religion, but also representative government itself. The establishment of one religion over others attacked a fundamental human right—an unalienable right—of conscience. If lawmakers could destroy the right of freedom of conscience, they could destroy all other unalienable rights. Those in charge of government could throw representative government out the window and make themselves tyrants.

In order to make sure men had the right of conscience, the framers added the First Amendment to the Constitution. It read: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….”

Madison was right to link religion and representative government. In the early years of the nation, Americans zealously guarded the wall between the two. They strictly limited the power of the federal government to reflect religion, refusing even to permit the government to stop delivery of the U.S. mails on Sunday out of concern that Jews and Christians did not share the same Sabbath, and the government could not choose one over the other. The Constitution, a congressional report noted, gave Congress no authority “to inquire and determine what part of time, or whether any has been set apart by the Almighty for religious exercises.”

But the Civil War marked a change. As early as the 1830s, southern white enslavers relied on religious justification for their hierarchical system that rested on white supremacy. God, they argued, had made Black Americans for enslavement and women for marriage, and society must recognize those facts.

A character in an 1836 novel written by a Virginia gentleman explained to a younger man that God had given everyone a place in society. Women and Black people were at the bottom, “subordinate” to white men by design. “All women live by marriage,” he said. “It is their only duty.” Trying to make them equal was a cruelty. “For my part,” the older man said, “I am well pleased with the established order of the universe. I see…subordination everywhere. And when I find the subordinate content…and recognizing his place…as that to which he properly belongs, I am content to leave him there.”

The Confederacy rejected the idea of popular government, maintaining instead that a few Americans should make the rules for the majority. As historian Gaines Foster explained in his 2002 book Moral Reconstruction, which explores the nineteenth-century relationship between government and morality, it was the Confederacy, not the U.S. government, that sought to align the state with God. A nation was more than the “aggregation of individuals,” one Presbyterian minister preached, it was “a sort of person before God,” and the government must purge that nation of sins.

Confederates not only invoked “the favor and guidance of Almighty God” in their Constitution, they established as their motto “Deo vindice,” or “God will vindicate.”

The United States, in contrast, was recentering democracy during the war, and it rejected the alignment of the federal government with a religious vision. When reformers in the United States tried to change the preamble of the U.S. Constitution to read, “We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the sources of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Ruler among nations, and His revealed will as of supreme authority, in order to constitute a Christian government, and in order to form a more perfect union,” the House Committee on the Judiciary concluded that “the Constitution of the United States does not recognize a Supreme Being.”

That defense of democracy—the will of the majority—continued to hold religious extremists at bay.

Reformers continued to try to add a Christian amendment to the Constitution, Foster explains, and in March 1896 once again got so far as the House Committee on the Judiciary. One reformer stressed that turning the Constitution into a Christian document would provide a source of authority for the government that, he implied, it lacked when it simply relied on a voting majority. A religious amendment “asks the Bible to decide moral issues in political life; not all moral questions, but simply those that have become political questions.”

Opponents recognized this attempt as a revolutionary attack that would dissolve the separation of church and state, and hand power to a religious minority. One reformer said that Congress had no right to enact laws that were not in “harmony with the justice of God” and that the voice of the people should prevail only when it was “right.” Congressmen then asked who would decide what was right, and what would happen if the majority was wrong. Would the Supreme Court turn into an interpreter of the Bible?

The committee set the proposal aside.

Now, once again, we are watching a minority trying to impose its will on the majority, with leaders like House speaker Johnson noting that “I try to do every day what my constituents want. But sometimes what your constituents want does not line up with the principles God gave us for government. And you have to have conviction enough to stand [up] to your own people….”

hcr
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.15 seconds on 06/01/2024 at 11:20:33