18
   

Monitoring Biden and other Contemporary Events

 
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2022 07:02 am
@BillW,
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NiftyInsidiousIndianringneckparakeet-size_restricted.gif

"We're gonna need a bigger roll."
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2022 11:21 am
What is the DOJ’s motivation for working so hard to win in the court of public opinion? Why publicize evidence as if to convince the viewing audience?

I don’t need any more convincing. There’s no real purpose served that I see in their trying to convince anyone but a grand jury of Trump’s guilt.

Why don’t they do that, instead of playing sensationalist footsie?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2022 12:00 pm
Trump boasted to close associates that he knew secrets about Emmanuel Macron’s sex life from US intelligence sources, it has been reported.

A Rolling Stone report said that during and after his presidency, Trump claimed to some of his closest associates that he knew details of Macron’s private life, which he had gleaned from “intelligence” he had seen or been briefed on.

Rolling Stone: Trump Bragged He Had ‘Intelligence’ on Macron’s Sex Life
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  3  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2022 07:00 pm
This feels significant: A democrat beat Sarah Palin in Alaska.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/news/peltola-beats-palin-wins-alaska-house-special-election/

<edit>
AND she’ll be the first indigenous Alaskan to serve in Congress!
BillW
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2022 10:10 pm
@snood,
Significant and, I have to admit, it makes me feel so good!
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2022 11:08 pm
@snood,
It cheers me up significantly. All I could think about was Sarah and those other two harpies screaming from the Congress about how much they love God and your mother has a mustache. Phewwwww.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2022 11:18 pm
@glitterbag,
Oh wow I didn’t even read this part - she’s also the first Democrat ever to represent Alaska in Congress.
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 12:28 am
Quote:
On Wednesday night, election officials announced that Mary Peltola won Alaska’s sole congressional seat
in a special election.

This makes her the first Democrat to win this seat in 50 years, and the first Alaska Native to be elected
to Congress ever.



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/alaska-sends-democrat-to-congress-for-first-time-50-years%e2%80%94and-first-native-alaskan-ever/ar-AA11kMl5
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 12:40 am
@snood,
On CNN, I heard Don Lemon report that prior to now, the last Democrat to win a House seat
in Alaska was (1972)
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 04:59 am
@Real Music,
I stand corrected - not the first Dem ever, but in fifty years. Still awesome though. I sure hope we can take this as a sign of what’s coming in November.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 05:01 am
@snood,
Quote:
What is the DOJ’s motivation for working so hard to win in the court of public opinion?


This may have been touched on in this article from the NY Times:

Quote:
Former President Donald J. Trump may have thought that he was playing offense when he asked a federal judge last week for an independent review of documents seized from his residence in Florida — a move that, at best, could delay but not derail an investigation into his handling of the records.

But on Tuesday night, the Justice Department used a routine court filing in the matter to initiate a blistering counteroffensive that disclosed new evidence that Mr. Trump and his legal team may have interfered with the inquiry.

In the filing, in Federal District Court for the Southern District of Florida, department officials revealed more details about the classified materials that Mr. Trump had taken from the White House, including a remarkable photograph of several of them arrayed on the floor of Mar-a-Lago, his home and private club in Florida. In what read at times like a road map for a potential prosecution down the road, the filing also laid out evidence that Mr. Trump and his lawyers may have obstructed justice.

It was as if Mr. Trump, seeming not to fully grasp the potential hazards of his modest legal move, cracked open a door, allowing the Justice Department to push past him and seize the initiative.

“The Trump team got more than they bargained for,” said Preet Bharara, a former U.S. attorney in Manhattan and a longtime critic of Mr. Trump. “In response to a thin and tardy special master motion, D.O.J. was given the opportunity to be expansive.”

Federal prosecutors do not appear to be close to a decision about whether to charge Mr. Trump or anyone else in the documents case. Nor is it yet clear what harm, if any, to national security was done by Mr. Trump’s decision to keep the classified documents at his beachfront club — or even what specific subjects they covered.

Mr. Trump escaped the Russia investigation led by the special counsel Robert S. Mueller III without facing obstruction charges, covered at the time by a Justice Department legal memo that guides against indicting a sitting president. But bringing a new case focused on the documents found at Mar-a-Lago would also be politically fraught, given that Mr. Trump seems to be planning another run for the White House.

Still, the Justice Department’s objection to Mr. Trump’s request for a special master to review the retrieved material was nothing if not expansive. Unfolding over 36 pages, it combined complicated legal arguments with an easy-to-read narrative of how, in the course of more than a year, Mr. Trump and his lawyers repeatedly dodged the government’s attempts to get the documents back.

Covering its final page was what Mr. Bharara called “an extra proverbial thousand words”: an image of five yellow folders marked “Top Secret,” and a red one labeled “Secret,” lying on the ground beside a box of magazine covers.

The image, which seemed to be a standard evidence photo, was the sort of thing the government collects all the time for use at possible trials. But because Mr. Trump and his lawyers made disputed statements about their handling of the records, it gave the Justice Department an opportunity to publicize the photo, which has now appeared repeatedly on TV news.

On Wednesday, going back on the offensive, Mr. Trump attacked the image.

“Terrible the way the FBI, during the Raid on Mar-a-Lago, threw documents haphazardly all over the floor,” he wrote on his social media platform. He went to say, in a just-asking sort of way: “(Perhaps pretending it was me that did it!)”

Later that same evening, Mr. Trump’s lawyers angrily renewed their call for a special master in the case, telling a federal judge that Mr. Trump had merely possessed “his own presidential records.” In an 18-page filing, the lawyers suggested that by undertaking what they called an “unprecedented, unnecessary and legally unsupported raid” on Mar-a-Lago, the Justice Department was “criminalizing a former president’s possession of personal and presidential records in a secure setting.”

Taken at face value, Mr. Trump’s request for a special master was an effort to claw back presidential records that he and his lawyers contended were protected by executive privilege. But if it is successful, it could also slow down the Justice Department’s inquiry into whether he had wrongfully kept the material in the first place and subsequently interfered with the investigation.

The Justice Department rebutted the first claim Tuesday night by pointing out that Mr. Trump, as a former president, did not have the power to assert executive privilege over the documents when federal prosecutors — current members of the executive branch — had a court-ordered warrant to obtain them. The brief also noted that a delay for a special master review would be unnecessary given prosecutors had already completed their own review.

As is frequently the case with Mr. Trump, the papers his legal team filed to the judge overseeing the matter, Aileen M. Cannon, did more than just make legal arguments. They often drifted into irrelevant subjects (the former president’s polling numbers) or made extraneous complaints (such as one about “farcical Russian collusion claims.”)

While Mr. Trump’s lawyers have sought to portray the former president as the harried victim of government persecution, they have also claimed that he cooperated fully with the government’s attempts to get the documents back.

Mr. Trump’s lawyers said that in May, the former president “voluntarily” accepted a grand jury subpoena seeking documents still in his possession that bore “classification markings.” One month later, according to the lawyers’ account, Mr. Trump met with a top federal prosecutor and three F.B.I. agents who had gone to Mar-a-Lago to pick up the materials demanded by the subpoena.

Greeting them in the dining room of his estate, Mr. Trump assured the men that he was there to help. “Whatever you need,” the papers quoted him as saying, “just let us know.”

In its filing on Tuesday, the Justice Department took issue with this obliging portrait of the former president, offering a cinematic picture of how Mr. Trump and his legal team had stymied efforts to retrieve the documents.

When the delegation from the Justice Department arrived at Mar-a-Lago on June 3, one of Mr. Trump’s lawyers handed over a single Redweld envelope, double-wrapped in tape, explaining that the records inside had come from a storage room. Another lawyer — identified as Christina Bobb, according to people familiar with the matter — signed a certification letter, the filing said, swearing that “a diligent search” had been conducted and that all of the classified materials on the property had been turned over.

But when the delegation tried to visit the storage room, the filing said, one of the lawyers “explicitly prohibited” officials from opening or looking into any of the other boxes there. That, the filing said, stopped them from confirming that no materials with classification markings had been left behind.

Investigators soon discovered evidence — possibly from interviews with witnesses — that classified documents remained at Mar-a-Lago. Eventually, the filing said, the Justice Department came to believe that government records had likely been “concealed and removed from the storage room” and that efforts may have been taken “to obstruct the government’s investigation.”

It was that belief, it seems, that led to the search of Mar-a-Lago on Aug. 8. As the Justice Department bluntly pointed out, when the F.B.I. descended on the property, agents discovered over twice the number of classified documents that Mr. Trump’s lawyers had handed over after their “diligent search” in June — including three that were found not in the storage room, but in desks in the former president’s office.

It is not uncommon for prosecutors conducting investigations to reveal new details — even striking ones — in court filings. But the Justice Department’s filing Tuesday night was specifically intended to rebut what senior law enforcement officials described as a false narrative about the run-up to the search at Mar-a-Lago that was pushed by Mr. Trump and his associates in their court papers and in the news media.

John P. Fishwick Jr., an Obama appointee who served as the U.S. attorney for the Western District of Virginia and had been critical of the department’s previous, less expansive filings, said that the Justice Department had started to shift its tactics.

“They are starting to understand that you not only need to be speaking to the judge with these filings, you need to be speaking directly to the American people,” he said.


Over the past week, what was initially meant to be a tightly argued legal brief focused on objecting to the appointment of a special master expanded into something much broader, the officials said. The filing became a more pointed presentation of evidence of the Justice Department’s belief that it had no choice except to seek a warrant for the search at Mar-a-Lago.

In compiling the brief, the officials said, one of the last — and most significant — steps the department’s leadership took was to submit a motion in Federal District Court in Washington to unseal two grand jury subpoenas. One of the subpoenas, which was included in the filing, was the request for Mr. Trump to turn over the documents at Mar-a-Lago. The other asked for footage from surveillance cameras at the property to confirm the movement of some of the materials.

Matthew Miller, a former spokesman for the Justice Department, said the final product was a perfect distillation of Attorney General Merrick B. Garland’s oft-repeated belief that if the department needs to say something, it should only speak through its filings.

“That has been the difference between Trump and D.O.J.,” Mr. Miller said. “Trump keeps saying things publicly he can’t back up in court while D.O.J. waits in the grass and then shows up with a knockout blow.”

“And because Garland has been so conservative in his approach to the job,” he added, “those punches land even harder.”
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 05:37 am
@hightor,
I read that whole thing. I noticed what you bolded. I guess you bolded that section because in that whole article it best addresses my question about why the DOJ is actively vying for public favor. It really doesn’t address the ‘why’ at all.

The quote contained in your bolded section from a former US attorney reads,
Quote:
“They are starting to understand that you not only need to be speaking to the judge with these filings, you need to be speaking directly to the American people.”


Why? What has convincing the viewing public got to do with pursuing justice wherever the evidence leads them?

And by the way doesn’t this “new tactic” fly in the face of all the posturing that defenders of the slow DOJ process do about Garland’s “playing things close to his chest”, and conducting quiet investigations, and being “leak proof”?



hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 07:53 am
@snood,
Quote:

Why? What has convincing the viewing public got to do with pursuing justice wherever the evidence leads them?

I'm only guessing that they sincerely believe that the septic political atmosphere requires that the public deserves to know that the government is behaving responsibly and legally.
Quote:
And by the way doesn’t this “new tactic” fly in the face of all the posturing that defenders of the slow DOJ process do about Garland’s “playing things close to his chest”, and conducting quiet investigations, and being “leak proof”?

I don't think so:
Quote:
Matthew Miller, a former spokesman for the Justice Department, said the final product was a perfect distillation of Attorney General Merrick B. Garland’s oft-repeated belief that if the department needs to say something, it should only speak through its filings.

snood
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 08:42 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:


I'm only guessing that they sincerely believe that the septic political atmosphere requires that the public deserves to know that the government is behaving responsibly and legally.



The public deserves? So, the expansive filings released with a flourish are done out of a beneficent desire to satisfy public curiosity? ****, that’s big of ‘em.

If one happens to not be very prone to accept the actions of the law enforcement arm of the federal government as being all well intended and for the service of the people, it’s not difficult to imagine less savory motives for their encouragement of all the tabloid level media hum.

For instance, putting up a big show of sparring with Trump’s “legal
team” fastens public attention on the never ending drama of Trump’s latest foibles and crimes and away from the dawning realization that he will ultimately slime his way out of this.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 11:20 am
@snood,
Quote:
The public deserves?

It was a guess, snood, I don't know why they don't run the Justice Department in a manner which meets with your approval. What do you want us to do, ignore the breaking developments and just stew, in private, about the unfairness of it all?

Quote:
So, the expansive filings released with a flourish are done out of a beneficent desire to satisfy public curiosity?

Again, it's just a guess, but I don't think that's the only thing going on. I think there's some degree of drama but there are also good, sound reasons to prevent the Trump team from completely dominating the news cycle with lies. Especially with regard to people who are on the fence and might be ready to leave the Trump orbit.

Quote:
For instance, putting up a big show of sparring with Trump’s “legal
team” fastens public attention on the never ending drama of Trump’s latest foibles and crimes and away from the dawning realization that he will ultimately slime his way out of this.

So it's better to not say anything, not respond to any lies, and let the public, inundated with pro-Trump propaganda, come to its own conclusions? It's better for people to listen to Trump's legal team and Fox opinion-mongers and decide that, "Yeah, the ex-president got a raw deal"?




snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 12:02 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
It was a guess, snood,


It’s all perspective. You guess the DOJ’s actions are based in sound, credible reasoning that consider the best interest of the general public.
I guess the government is filled with moral cowards, including the DOJ, who will always do what is politically expedient and best guards their prospects of staying employed.

All in one’s perspective.

Quote:
I don't know why they don't run the Justice Department in a manner which meets with your approval.


My "approval" has **** to do with this, and that’s a snotty thing to say that lowers you, and deflects from just arguing the merits of each position. Your snark is refreshingly honest, though.

Quote:
What do you want us to do, ignore the breaking developments and just stew, in private, about the unfairness of it all?


I’m getting a sneaky satisfaction out of knowing that you’re the one getting nasty in this discussion. How, oh how will you ever live it down?
No, Hightor – I don’t think the media should ignore breaking developments and leave us to stew in private about the unfairness of it all. That's just another deflection. The issue was a change in the DOJ’s tactics, to go more public, in a bigger way, and why that change happened. Try to focus. And oh yeah, **** you.


Quote:
Again, it's just a guess, but I don't think that's the only thing going on. I think there's some degree of drama but there are also good, sound reasons to prevent the Trump team from completely dominating the news cycle with lies.


I think the term for fabricating an argument that the opposition didn’t make and then arguing against it is something like 'straw man fallacy'.
At no time have I ever said or suggested that the Trump team be allowed to “dominate the news cycle with lies”. There’s reporting the news, and there’s spinning for effect.

Quote:
Especially with regard to people who are on the fence and might be ready to leave the Trump orbit.


Speaking of spinning for effect, The Department of Justice surely isn’t supposed to be considering how their actions influence undecided voters. That’s ridiculous.

Quote:
So it's better to not say anything, not respond to any lies, and let the public, inundated with pro-Trump propaganda, come to its own conclusions? It's better for people to listen to Trump's legal team and Fox opinion-mongers and decide that, "Yeah, the ex-president got a raw deal"?


No one here is contending any of that. You pulled that from the same odiferous crevice you pulled that line about “ignoring all breaking developments”. You having a trying day, or just feeling like showing your ass?

hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 02:39 pm
@snood,
Oh jeezus...

Quote:
My "approval" has **** to do with this...

You obviously disapprove of the DofJ's tactics; I'm curious as to what sort of tactics you would approve of. I don't see why you'd take offense at that.


Quote:
The issue was a change in the DOJ’s tactics, to go more public, in a bigger way, and why that change happened.

And I told you that I have no idea but I'd guess that political considerations have risen to prominence since there are actual documents and court filings. I could be wrong, I don't deny that.

Quote:
At no time have I ever said or suggested that the Trump team be allowed to “dominate the news cycle with lies”.

Of course you didn't say that. I wasn't quoting you. Focus – if the DofJ remains silent whose side gets the airplay?

Quote:
The Department of Justice surely isn’t supposed to be considering how their actions influence undecided voters. That’s ridiculous.

I don't believe it a conscious attempt to exert influence on undecided voters on the part of the DofJ; what I'm pointing out is that there are people who may not be completely certain which side to believe and hearing from each side gives them more information as to how to understand the case. It's a positive outcome. What are the negatives?

Quote:
No one here is contending any of that.

You've been very critical of DofJ tactics. You seemed to imply that you were opposed to their making a case before the public. So what would that mean? Wouldn't it mean that the public would then only hear one side of the story? How else am I supposed to interpret your statement?


Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 05:39 pm
@snood,
Quote:
This feels significant: A democrat beat Sarah Palin in Alaska.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/news/peltola-beats-palin-wins-alaska-house-special-election/

<edit>
AND she’ll be the first indigenous Alaskan to serve in Congress!


https://iili.io/6Jf9Mx.jpg

Very Happy



0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2022 05:57 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
You seemed to imply that you were opposed to their making a case before the public. So what would that mean? Wouldn't it mean that the public would then only hear one side of the story? How else am I supposed to interpret your statement?


I don't remember you purposefully obfuscating and misstating what I say like this before. It's really annoying. I didn't "imply" anything. I'm saying that I didn't think the DOJ had any good reason to be shilling their filings like they were putting on a show for the media.


You're saying that what they're doing, and the way they're doing it is necessary, so that the public doesn't get just one side of the story.
I disagree. They don't have to counter every inane argument the Trump team makes. The reality is that the Trump team hasn't got a frikking leg to stand on, and the DOJ elevates and dignifies their nonsense by trying to parry their stupidity.

Nothing implied. Nothing to infer.

Of course we're going to hear two sides of everything whether there are really two sides or not. It's the American media way. But I don't think people are so stupid that if the DOJ did their filings without regard to the Trump teams constant flow of lies and absurdities, then everyone would come to the conclusion that "Well, Trump must be the victim here, and his arguments must be true." Is that what you really think would happen?

Would you? I mean, if we'd seen the last of the DOJ filings, and all we heard from now until November was Trump's parade of excuses du jour, would you then conclude that his words must carry some truth?

Of course you wouldn't. The suggestion is ridiculous.

hightor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2022 02:41 am
@snood,
Quote:
I don't remember you purposefully obfuscating and misstating what I say like this before.

It's possible that I didn't get your point, didn't really know what you were talking about, and answered in ignorance.
Quote:
I'm saying that I didn't think the DOJ had any good reason to be shilling their filings like they were putting on a show for the media.

Right. You pointed that out a page or two ago. I read your comment and became curious about that myself. If you remember, I agreed with you about the release of the affidavit. So when I saw the piece in the Times I thought, "snood might be interested in that" and posted it. I didn't post it as a personal response or a challenge, I posted it because Fishwick's comment seemed to be confirming your suspicion that justice might be secondary to winning an audience for the Department – I was supplying more information, not criticizing you.

Quote:
You're saying that what they're doing, and the way they're doing it is necessary, so that the public doesn't get just one side of the story.


Nope. It's not necessary. But the fact that it's out there has both positive and negative consequences. I think many people are simply fascinated about the workings of the law and absorb some civic lessons from these spectacles. That could be seen as beneficial.

Quote:
They don't have to counter every inane argument the Trump team makes.


They won't.

Quote:
...and the DOJ elevates and dignifies their nonsense by trying to parry their stupidity.

I hardly think they elevate and dignify the efforts of the Trump team – at all. If anything, it's the opposite.

Quote:
But I don't think people are so stupid that if the DOJ did their filings without regard to the Trump teams constant flow of lies and absurdities...

There are plenty of stupid people who believe Trump, what are you saying? Ever hear of Q-Anon? In any case, the filing was a court-ordered response to a legal motion brought by the Trump lawyers, not a public relations event. I don't expect this to remain a daily exchange of attacks and counter-attacks. It's a phase.

Quote:
I mean, if we'd seen the last of the DOJ filings, and all we heard from now until November was Trump's parade of excuses du jour, would you then conclude that his words must carry some truth?

I wouldn't, but I already think that Trump's a liar. I would wonder why I didn't hear one word from the other side, though, and suspect that something was up.
 

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