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Does The Left Honestly Support Our Troops?

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 02:17 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Can you offer some proof of the claim that criticism of the war weakens the country?

Or perhaps define "success in a war?"

Or let's broaden it further and define "success."

I find it to be self-evident that if the party out of power creates a huge and constant noise that the president is an evil moron, that the war should never have been undertaken and was done so only dishonestly, and heralds every military setback or goal not yet achieved as a sign of impending doom, then that does weaken the war effort, for example, undermines the will to fight. Frankly, I don't think I should be asked to prove something so self-evident.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 02:39 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

That must be why Bush said a million times that we were going to Iraq to resolve the WMD issue, but never claimed a causal link between Iraq and 9/11.


Yes he would say something like this: "After 9/11.... we have to be sure that WMD cannot be put in the hands of terrorists"..."The lessons learned form 9/11"..."9/11 taught us that..."

Okay, I'll buy that. Do you believe it to be a false statement?


Believe which to be a false statement?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 02:41 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

That must be why Bush said a million times that we were going to Iraq to resolve the WMD issue, but never claimed a causal link between Iraq and 9/11.


Yes he would say something like this: "After 9/11.... we have to be sure that WMD cannot be put in the hands of terrorists"..."The lessons learned form 9/11"..."9/11 taught us that..."

Okay, I'll buy that. Do you believe it to be a false statement?


Believe which to be a false statement?

Quote:
"After 9/11.... we have to be sure that WMD cannot be put in the hands of terrorists"

I agree that this is exactly the kind of thing our president would be likely to say. True statement or false, according to you?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 02:43 pm
I would think that the statement would be true without the qualifier, "after 9/11".

Did you get the meaning of what I was actually saying, or did you just think I was trying to make a point about the justification of the war?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 02:46 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Can you offer some proof of the claim that criticism of the war weakens the country?

Or perhaps define "success in a war?"

Or let's broaden it further and define "success."

I find it to be self-evident that if the party out of power creates a huge and constant noise that the president is an evil moron, that the war should never have been undertaken and was done so only dishonestly, and heralds every military setback or goal not yet achieved as a sign of impending doom, then that does weaken the war effort, for example, undermines the will to fight. Frankly, I don't think I should be asked to prove something so self-evident.

It was once self-evident that the Earth revolved around the sun, as well.

I think if you are accusing someone of weaking the war effort, then you should be prepared to back it up.

Typical response from you, however. You always require the folks you disagree with to provide evidence, but are never willing to provide evidence yourself.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 02:50 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Can you offer some proof of the claim that criticism of the war weakens the country?

Or perhaps define "success in a war?"

Or let's broaden it further and define "success."

I find it to be self-evident that if the party out of power creates a huge and constant noise that the president is an evil moron, that the war should never have been undertaken and was done so only dishonestly, and heralds every military setback or goal not yet achieved as a sign of impending doom, then that does weaken the war effort, for example, undermines the will to fight. Frankly, I don't think I should be asked to prove something so self-evident.

It was once self-evident that the Earth revolved around the sun, as well.

I think if you are accusing someone of weaking the war effort, then you should be prepared to back it up.

Typical response from you, however. You always require the folks you disagree with to provide evidence, but are never willing to provide evidence yourself.

My personal merits or demerits are irrelevant. I maintain that there are some statements so obvious that they may simply be taken as likely true. Moreover, I do not believe that I can prove it any more than I can prove that losing one's job and having a death in the family would depress the average person. Yet the conslusion seems one that any reasonable person would agree with. Do you believe that doing these things does not weaken the war effort?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 03:02 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Do you believe that doing these things does not weaken the war effort?

I believe that our troops are smart, well-trained professionals. I believe they are capable of observing the world around them and drawing their own conclusions.

I believe that an informed, active electorate is vital to a successful democracy.

I believe that freedom of expression is one of the foundations of our nation.

I believe that criticism of the war, and criticism of the way in which the war is prosectued, can only affect the war positively. It forces our leaders to be more thoughtful. It forces our leaders to be more careful. It forces our leaders to be better than they might otherwise be.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 03:03 pm
I believe those things to be self-evident.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 03:14 pm
I'm sure you are a smart well-trained professional too, Drewdad. Im sure you would thrive when your supervisor or boss, clientele, or competors decide to 'strengthen your competency and efficiency' by constant criticism of your superiors, your organization, your product, your business plan, your way of expressing yourself, your morality, your veracity, and your competence. It really helps that every mistake or setback is flashed on the company bulletin board and in the newsletter and you rarely, if ever, see that you did anything right.

Yeah, we all thrive in that kind of environment..
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 03:19 pm
As a smart, well-trained professional, I'm held responsible for errors that I make. I accept criticism. I keep my boss well-informed.

The troops are responsible to the President.

The President is responsible to us.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 03:24 pm
If you see a boss at your company doing something that is off-putting to the customers, do you just keep your mouth shut for fear that the other employees might be disillusioned? Or do you think maybe the other employees are capable of seeing when someone is making an error, too?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 03:24 pm
We also have responsibility as citizens to not make their jobs any more difficult than they already are.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 03:27 pm
Again, I see it as ultimately making their jobs easier by making sure that the administration makes good decisions.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 04:39 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Do you believe that doing these things does not weaken the war effort?

I believe that our troops are smart, well-trained professionals. I believe they are capable of observing the world around them and drawing their own conclusions.

I believe that an informed, active electorate is vital to a successful democracy.

I believe that freedom of expression is one of the foundations of our nation.

I believe that criticism of the war, and criticism of the way in which the war is prosectued, can only affect the war positively. It forces our leaders to be more thoughtful. It forces our leaders to be more careful. It forces our leaders to be better than they might otherwise be.

I disagree. If a sizeable number of citizens who are willing to sacrfice the good of their country for their own political ends, try to frame the administration in power for anything they can pin on them, and declare defeat anytime there is the smallest military setback or any military goal can be identified that has not yet been met, there is really the likelihood of damage to the war effort. In what you say above, you are making the unrealistic assumption that everyone is honest and has good intentions.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 04:49 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Do you believe that doing these things does not weaken the war effort?

I believe that our troops are smart, well-trained professionals. I believe they are capable of observing the world around them and drawing their own conclusions.

I believe that an informed, active electorate is vital to a successful democracy.

I believe that freedom of expression is one of the foundations of our nation.

I believe that criticism of the war, and criticism of the way in which the war is prosectued, can only affect the war positively. It forces our leaders to be more thoughtful. It forces our leaders to be more careful. It forces our leaders to be better than they might otherwise be.

I disagree. If a sizeable number of citizens who are willing to sacrfice the good of their country for their own political ends, try to frame the administration in power for anything they can pin on them, and declare defeat anytime there is the smallest military setback or any military goal can be identified that has not yet been met, there is really the likelihood of damage to the war effort. In what you say above, you are making the unrealistic assumption that everyone is honest and has good intentions.


So you had the same standard from 1992-2000? You felt the same way about Republicans during Bosnia? Kosovo?
Somehow Brandon I think you are a fair weather patriot when it comes to this standard. Only as long as YOU support the war.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 04:52 pm
the implication is that the "left" whatever that is, is not being honest if they profess support. And if they dont support then they are disloyal.

so they are not honest, or they are not loyal.

its a silly question and one not really worth bothering about.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 04:58 pm
Meanwhile the right is assumed to be honest and have good intentions.

Nice reasoning, Brandon.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 07:35 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
I find it to be self-evident that if the party out of power creates a huge and constant noise that the president is an evil moron, that the war should never have been undertaken and was done so only dishonestly, and heralds every military setback or goal not yet achieved as a sign of impending doom, then that does weaken the war effort, for example, undermines the will to fight. Frankly, I don't think I should be asked to prove something so self-evident.


You may find it self-evident, but you do not provide any evidence that anyone else should.

During the War of 1812, public resentment was high. Madison's first Secretary of War, William Eustis, was so incompetent as to have merited the term criminally incompetent, were he not so "self-evidently" stupid. His replacement, John Armstrong, was better, but not by much. Eustis lost his job after Hull surrendered Detroit to Isaac Brock--whose force was not one third as large as Hull's--and after the fiasco at Queenstown, when the American invasion of Canada was entrusted to Stephen Van Rensselaer, whose major qualification was that he had married the daughter of a Revolutionary War hero. He had been appointed largely for the good and sufficient military reason that the Governor of New York wanted him out of the way, instead of campaigning for the Governor's mansion. Fortunately for the United States, officers such as Winfield Scott, Zachary Taylor, Andrew Jackson and Oliver Hazard Perry were available. Madison had relied upon the idiotic policy of Thomas Jefferson which held that the nation could be defended with the militia (whose favorite passtime was foot races to see who could run home from the battle the fastest) and a gun boat navy (much of which can still be seen by those with scuba equipment.). Replacing bad apples and dead wood is the job of an administration, and if they fail, a lot more is at stake than simply the next election.

During the American civil war, Lincoln constantly told those around him that he wanted to find someone who understood the numbers. Winfield Scott had now spent more than fifty years of his life in the Army, and when his native Virginia seceded, it took the heart out of him. Henry Halleck proved a competent successor as an administrator, but was still not what Lincoln was looking for. One commander after another succeeded in command of the main army in the east--Irwin McDowll, George McClellan, John Pope, Ambrose Burnside, Joseph Hooker--until George Meade finally took up the command until the war's end. When Lincoln finally settled on Grant, he had the man he needed, someone who understood the numbers. The Republican's special committee on the conduct of the war acted as a virtual Star Chamber, and heaven help the officer called to appear before them. But in the end, Mr. Lincoln's armies got it right.

By contrast, Jefferson Davis liked almost no one, and no one liked him. The pantheon of incompetent Confederate officers continued in command is breathtaking--Braxton Bragg, W. W. Loring, John B. Floyd, Pierre Toutant--known as Beauregard--John Bell Hood, Theophilus Holmes. It didn't matter how good you were, if Davis didn't like you, you were out. It didn't matter how bad you were, if the Confederate Congress liked you, you were untouchable. But no one at the South spoke out against these men, because that would have been unpatriotic, that would have underminded the effort. Ironically, the only major Confederate commander who ever had a wide, bad public reputation was Robert Lee, who was known as "Granny Lee" before the Seven Days changed everyone's minds.

One of the greatest, classic American essays was Thoreau's Civil Disobediance, written in protest against the Mexican War. Our armies have performed well despite incompetence at the highest levels, and have only benefited from having that incompetence pointed out. What kind of free republic is it if the warhawks have the right to make all critics sit down and shut up? Every citizen has the right, the responsibility even, to speak out against such incompetence. And the troops are still citizens, as well, and they deserve the best we can offer them, not some doddering fool like Rummy; they deserve to be sent where they can do the most good, not into some trumped up war designed to fulfill the PNAC agenda, and line the pockets of Halliburton.

All of which seems self-evident to me.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 08:32 pm
No,I dont support the war but I also dont want my buddies getting hurt.How is this possible by Pragers rational.please enlighten me
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2005 08:54 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Maybe you do have the right to expect that level of performance by the military, but don't you want to behave in such a way as to not weaken your country while it's fighting a lethal enemy bent on our destruction?

That's irrelevant. One should act in whatever way one chooses, within the confines of the law, because our military personnel should be grown-up enough to endure whatever kind of criticism may come their way without any effect on their performance. If they can't, then the fault does not lie with the critics, it lies with the military.

Really, I'm astounded at those who think that criticism of the war has a detrimental effect on the troops who are fighting the war. If they truly believe that, they should be demanding that the military institute some major reforms that would militate against this kind of troop demoralization. Instead, however, they aim at the critics. That's like saying that the fans are responsible for a team's losing record.

Brandon9000 wrote:
Is one a good American who knowingly weakens his country's success in a war, because in a perfect world it wouldn't have that effect?

We're not talking about "weakening the country's success in a war," we're talking about supporting the troops. If by criticizing the war a person detrimentally affects the troops, then that person is doing the military a favor by exposing a major weakness. It would be like pointing out that the troops are driving around in unarmored vehicles. Despite what Donald Rumsfeld might think, that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing.
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