Sports and the Pandemic? When do we finally open this up?

People don't obey authority. They do what they have to do to appear as superficially obedient, but covertly they look for ways to get around it. People are really good at sneaky, covert, behavior. That is, for example, why racism is worse now than it was back when it was totally overt.

What people need to do is stay home as much possible and social distance. They have received the guidelines. If the government starts fining/jailing them etc. for breaking the rules, there will be people out doing things to trigger the fines and jailing, i.e. because somehow there are always people triggering any form of government spending/investment. I'm not exactly sure how it works, but it just always seems to happen that way.


You have been brainwashed by centralism. The US constitution has never been centralist. It uses separation of powers and checks and balances, as well as division of powers between states and federal government, etc. to attempt to prevent central control. In this day and age, however centralism tries to manipulate all these divergent institutions to work in harmonious ways that exercise a sort of ad-hoc centralism, but that was not what they were invented for.

I don't feel like having this discussion, though, as it is one I've had a thousand times and people like you will never be convinced because somehow you've been bought off by centralism and so you will go on mindlessly arguing for it endlessly and never give any thought to its shortcomings and failures.


Liberty is not anarchy, except from a centralist perspective. You won't be able to see how decentralized liberty is a more effective method of governance until you look closer at what centralism has to do to effectuate submission to central authority among the people, and how that undermines their fundamental human capacity to guide themselves sensibly.

Put in concrete terms, when you have a bunch of mindless sheep following orders, it leaves room for all sorts of bad things to happen that don't happen when people have their brains and consciences turned on and engaged.

I really was interested to check the Olympics this year, but I will need to wait another year.... Very disappointing

Gees. One of these again. I'll stick with it until the salad course.



By and large they do. They stop at stop signs and red lights even after dark when they're the only ones around. They snap seat belts. They line up at midnight at the post office on April 15 tho get their taxes in on time even though a day or a week late means nothing.

The problem with masks and self quarantines is that the government and specifically the President sends mixed messages and the President scoffs at it while his experts try to give us information.



Who's to say. Liberty stands in any sort of system by itself. I have liberty no matter where I am. Liberty is about what circumstances you accept. Freedom is about what circumstance a system allows. Do not confuse Liberarianism for liberty. Libertarianism is just another system. It will allow you certain freedoms, but liberty regardless the system you take for yourself.

Thanks for the salad free version. I did vote this and the second before it up.

They like to have lots of little easy hoops to jump through so that they can convince themselves that they are abiding, when in fact they are always looking to escape the things that they don't want to follow. The people who are irresponsible in this way are also looking to rally behind those politicians and 'leaders' who will give them things they want to follow and not give them the things they don't want to follow. It is the liberalism that wants the king to make the things you don't like illegal and tells you that everything else is ok, so you can basically get away with more than you would if you were really disciplining yourself with your own (honest) conscience.

There are many ways that people would have long since changed their personal and business behavior to achieve sustainability if they were disciplining themselves; but what they do is elect leaders who claim to be solving the climate and sustainability problems, but who do it in a gradual way and cater to all the business and private/personal interests in maintain the industrial-consumer status quo that makes life easy and money flow. So then you have all these critics of Trump whenever this administration rolls back environmental policies, but the reality is that those policies always left plenty of room for people and industries to continue making as money money as possible, driving and using energy liberally, etc. Otherwise, the people would have rejected them and voted them out the way they did to Jimmy Carter at the end of the 70s after he prescribed energy-conservation, which Reagan said "the American people believe is not the answer." Obama basically stayed popular by taking an "all-of-the-above" approach to energy reform, which meant he subsidized new renewables as well as promoting older forms of energy, so the people and industry didn't reject him because he basically validated their desire for energy/economic/industrial abundance while also telling them that we are working on fixing the climate problem.

Now you're going to call what I wrote 'word salad' because I didn't bother separating it into paragraphs. You can read it though, if you try. C'mon, I believe in you!


Liberty is the principle that free people can govern themselves adequately in the absence of a king or other central authority. Read The Spirit of Liberty, by Learned Hand (it's about a one-page speech, online; google it). It has nothing to do with libertarianism. It's about using freedom responsibly and not thinking the purpose of a republic is to exercise unbridled freedom, which leads to authoritarian rule.


I'm glad you're starting to be able to make sense of my 'salad' and digest it. You may find one day that it's not really 'word salad' in the way that mentally deranged people toss words together without syntax and/or coherent meaning.

Half salad. What I said about liberty stands. Liberty is taken. Freedoms are given.

However I am not going to allow you and I to derail this thread. If you'd like to start a thread on the nature of liberty, I'm open to it so long as it does not turn into a salad bar.

Meanwhile: back to "Sports and the Pandemic".

You started it by saying that a pandemic is poorly managed by 'everyone being their own general.'

You started it before that by complaining there was a lack of leadership to deal with it.

If you were sticking with the thread topic, you would be a leader by saying things relevant to preventing sports from contributing to the spread of the pandemic, instead of talking about leadership or a lack thereof.

Considerations for Youth Sports

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/schools-childcare/youth-sports.html

As some communities in the United States begin to start youth sports activities again, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) offers the following considerations for ways in which youth sports organizations can protect players, families, and communities and slow the spread of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). Administrators of youth sports organizations can consult with state and local health officials to determine if and how to put into place these considerations. Each community may need to make adjustments to meet its unique needs and circumstances. Implementation should be guided by what is practical, acceptable, and tailored to the needs of each community. These considerations are meant to supplement – not replace – any state, local, territorial, or tribal health and safety laws, rules, and regulations with which youth sports organizations must comply.

Guiding Principles to Keep in Mind

There are a number of actions youth sports organizations can take to help lower the risk of COVID-19 exposure and reduce the spread during competition and practice. The more people a child or coach interacts with, the closer the physical interaction, the more sharing of equipment there is by multiple players, and the longer that interaction, the higher the risk of COVID-19 spread. Therefore, risk of COVID-19 spread can be different, depending on the type of activity. The risk of COVID-19 spread increases in youth sports settings as follows:

Lowest Risk: Performing skill-building drills or conditioning at home, alone or with family members.
Increasing Risk: Team-based practice.
More Risk: Within-team competition.
Even More Risk: Full competition between teams from the same local geographic area.
Highest Risk: Full competition between teams from different geographic areas.

If organizations are not able to keep in place safety measures during competition (for example, maintaining social distancing by keeping children six feet apart at all times), they may consider dropping down a level and limiting participation to within-team competition only (for example, scrimmages between members of the same team) or team-based practices only. Similarly, if organizations are unable to put in place safety measures during team-based activities, they may choose individual or at-home activities, especially if any members of the team are at high-risk for severe illness.

Assessing Risk

The way sports are played, and the way equipment is shared can influence the spread of COVID-19 among players. When you are assessing the risk of spread in your sport, consider:

Physical closeness of players, and the length of time that players are close to each other or to staff. Sports that require frequent closeness between players may make it more difficult to maintain social distancing, compared to sports where players are not close to each other. For close-contact sports (e.g., wrestling, basketball), play may be modified to safely increase distance between players.
For example, players and coaches can:
focus on individual skill building versus competition;
limit the time players spend close to others by playing full contact only in game-time situations;
decrease the number of competitions during a season.

Coaches can also modify practices so players work on individual skills, rather than on competition. Coaches may also put players into small groups (cohorts) that remain together and work through stations, rather than switching groups or mixing groups.


Amount of necessary touching of shared equipment and gear (e.g., protective gear, balls, bats, racquets, mats, or water bottles). It is also possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it, and then touching their own mouth, nose, or eyes. Minimize equipment sharing, and clean and disinfect shared equipment between use by different people to reduce the risk of COVID-19 spread.

Ability to engage in social distancing while not actively engaged in play (e.g., during practice, on the sideline, or in the dugout). During times when players are not actively participating in practice or competition, attention should be given to maintaining social distancing by increasing space between players on the sideline, dugout, or bench. Additionally, coaches can encourage athletes to use downtime for individual skill-building work or cardiovascular conditioning, rather than staying clustered together.

Age of the player. Older youth might be better able to follow directions for social distancing and take other protective actions like not sharing water bottles. If feasible, a coach, parent, or other caregiver can assist with making sure that athletes maintain proper social distancing. For younger athletes, youth sports programs may ask parents or other household members to monitor their children and make sure that they follow social distancing and take other protective actions (e.g., younger children could sit with parents or caregivers, instead of in a dugout or group area).

Players at higher risk of developing serious disease. Parents and coaches should assess level of risk based on individual players on the team who may be at higher risk for severe illness, such as children who may have asthma, diabetes, or other health problems.

Size of the team. Sports with a large number of players on a team may increase the likelihood of spread, compared to sports with fewer team members. Consider decreasing team sizes, as feasible.

Nonessential visitors, spectators, volunteers. Limit any nonessential visitors, spectators, volunteers, and activities involving external groups or organizations.

Travel outside of the local community. Traveling outside of the local community may increase the chances of exposing players, coaches, and fans to COVID-19, or unknowingly spreading it to others. This is the case particularly if a team from an area with high levels of COVID-19 competes with a team from an area with low levels of the virus. Youth sports teams should consider competing only against teams in their local area (e.g., neighborhood, town, or community).

Promoting Behaviors that Reduce Spread

Youth sports organizations may consider implementing several strategies to encourage behaviors that reduce the spread of COVID-19.

Staying Home when Appropriate

Educate staff and player families about when they should stay home and when they can return to activity

Actively encourage sick staff, families, and players to stay home. Develop policies that encourage sick employees to stay at home without fear of reprisal, and ensure employees aware of these policies.

Individuals, including coaches, players, and families, should stay home if they have tested positive for or are showing COVID-19 symptoms.

Individuals, including coaches, players, and families, who have recently had a close contact with a person with COVID-19 should also stay home and monitor their health.

CDC’s criteria can help inform return to work/school policies:
If they have been sick with COVID-19
If they have recently had a close contact with a person with COVID-19

Hand Hygiene and Respiratory Etiquette

Teach and reinforce handwashing with soap and water for at least 20 seconds

If soap and water are not readily available, hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol can be used (for staff and older children who can safely use hand sanitizer).

Do not allow spitting and encourage everyone to cover their coughs and sneezes with a tissue or use the inside of their elbow. Used tissues should be thrown in the trash and hands washed immediately with soap and water for at least 20 seconds.

If soap and water are not readily available, hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol can be used.

Cloth Face Coverings

Teach and reinforce the use of cloth face coverings. Face coverings are not intended to protect the wearer, but rather to reduce the risk of spreading COVID-19 from the person wearing the mask (who may not have any symptoms of disease). Face coverings may be challenging for players (especially younger players) to wear while playing sports. Face coverings should be worn by coaches, youth sports staff, officials, parents, and spectators as much as possible.

Wearing cloth face coverings is most important when physical distancing is difficult.

People wearing face coverings should be reminded to not touch the face covering and to wash their hands frequently. Information should be provided to all participants on the proper use, removal, and washing of cloth face coverings.

Note: Cloth face coverings should not be placed on:
Babies and children younger than 2 years old;
Anyone who has trouble breathing or is unconscious;
Anyone who is incapacitated or otherwise unable to remove the cloth face covering without assistance.

Adequate Supplies

If hand washing facilities are available, support healthy hygiene by providing supplies including soap, paper towels, tissues, and no-touch/foot pedal trash cans. If hand washing facilities are not available, provide hand sanitizer with at least 60% alcohol (for coaches, staff and older players who can safely use hand sanitizer).

Signs and Messages

Post signs in highly visible locations (e.g., at entrances and exits, and in restrooms) that promote everyday protective measurespdf icon and describe how to stop the spreadpdf icon of germs such as by properly washing hands and properly wearing a cloth face coveringimage icon.

Broadcast regular announcements on public announcement (PA) system

Include COVID-19 prevention messages (for example, videos) about behaviors that prevent spread of COVID-19 when communicating with staff, volunteers, officials, and families. This could include links, videos, and prevention messages in emails, on organization websites, and through the team and league’s social media accounts.

Find freely available CDC print and digital resources on CDC’s communication resources main page.

Like I said: neither you nor I.

Wanna go to another thread: I'm open. But a discussion on liberty vs. freedom is done on this thread for me. Blame anyone you want.

To everybody else. I apologize for the side trip. I'm back on topic.

While this is true, do you realize that there are people who so badly want to rationalize sports participation that they will start by looking at the highest risk level and start thinking of ways to rationalize it in order to rationalize all the lower levels as well?

I wish people would be reasonable and strive for the lowest risk, but many of read rules and guidelines looking for loopholes and openings for interpreting them the way they want to. It's like in Dumb and Dumber when Jim Carey's character asks if there's a chance he'll end up with the girl and she says, "one in a million," and his response is, "so you're telling me there's a chance." In short, people look for ways to interpret things so they can get or justify what they want, not to err on the side of caution.

I won't start the thread, but if you do and I don't see it, feel free to PM me with it.

People do what they want: they take liberties. The CDC makes suggestions: they give people the freedom to do what they want.

I go with every single detail in the CDC paper. Even if others don't. I will not do anything that would increase my chances of getting Covid. Don't you agree?

We are here:

Increasing Risk: Team-based practice

And this is what her team is doing:
focus on individual skill building versus competition

Coaches can also modify practices so players work on individual skills, rather than on competition. Coaches may also put players into small groups (cohorts) that remain together and work through stations, rather than switching groups or mixing groups.

Amount of necessary touching of shared equipment and gear - everyone uses their own ball and of course own water bottle.

Being that these are 16 and 17 year olds they will not need the same sort of monitoring.

They move to the competition in a little over a month. They are traveling less - it will all be local tournaments except one in NY but that will be most likely in the fall.

They seem to be following the CDC guidelines. My daughter has played for this organization since about 4th or 5th grade - we trust their judgement. They have always been about development, team and the girls over and above the winning. Not that they don't try to win - but development has always been above the win.

I know that if this were a totally deadly pandemic where even the slightest exposure meant certain death, we could all be stocking up on canned goods and not go out in public for a year or more . . . but covid19 isn't that bad.

So different people are in different situations, so we have to choose which risks to take while avoiding the ones we can. I personally try to focus on the duration of social-interaction, because I think that briefly interacting with someone in a checkout line or walking by them in a store or on a sidewalk is not going to transmit the viral load that gets shared when you sit and/or play together for 15/30/45/60+ minutes in close proximity.

This is the reason I think exercising and sports together is a bad idea. If you go out running/jogging/biking and you pass by others doing the same, that is just brief exposure with low viral-load transfer. It's a whole different thing to be exercising in the same indoor gym or running around on the same field fighting over the same ball.

You have to use your own judgment. If you trust anyone else's judgment, whatever happens to you as a result is your responsibility. You can't blame them because you trusted their judgment and thus failed to exercise your own.

It's not that you can't listen to what others have to say; but you should just realize that when you think you're putting your life in someone else's hands, that's not actually what you're doing. What you're actually doing is taking your life into your own hands and then shifting the responsibility to protect you away from yourself to someone else whose interests aren't your interests.

It seems reasonable to me with minimal risks. Its a hard balance when we really haven't been given all the information or tools the Executive Branch would normally have given us if Trump weren't that executive.

But I have faith in the CDC.

Yes it does seem reasonable - and after gathering as much facts as there are available from the CDC - i.e. no one under 20 dying in MA from COVID; less than a percent of children getting covid, there is very low risk for my daughter. My only concern would be my mom being older. So we would simply not have close contact with her.

I also weigh my daughter's mental health - and having this is much more beneficial than the slight chance on contracting covid. At least from all the statistics that are provided on the CDC website.

Every day you need to make decisions that involve risk - to me in this situation the risk is low and the benefits much higher.

We all measure our risks according to our needs. Certain sports seem relatively risk free, and sitting Yankee Stadium or the Spectrum most assuradly doesn't. Sitting outdoors with social distancing in the sun with some wind and wearing masks seems pretty safe to me.

That's life though isn't it? We all drive cars that someone once wrote a book titled "unsafe at any speed". Life is all about risk management. The CDC did a good job of explaining the risks and informing us on what we need to make our own decisions. I find it hard to fault either CDC or parents and student athletes. No one wants to risk their kids and themselves just to watch $2.00 football and drink $1.00 Pepsi's. If I don't like the way they handle a sports program - I'm staying away and you'll not be there anyway, so we'll both be safe.

Though I got to ask: what motivated your whole flip flop on Coronavirus??? You used to be such a big Dr Judy fan.

To add to that, the goal of the lockdown was not to stop the virus, it was to slow it long enough for us to learn, prepare, change where we needed to. We've had that time. Now we need to stay vigilant to what happens from here.

Why congregate with others in a stadium to do that? Why not go find a spot far away from other people and watch something on your phone?

People are good at rationalizing risks by saying that everything involves risk instead of doing what they should be doing, which is to always look for smaller risk choices.


No everyone drives cars. There is a culture waste/destruction that has been normalized by the car-culture, which has been destroying the US and other parts of the world for over a century of mass production/industrial-consumerism.


For too many people it is, but this is because they don't want to make the sacrifices it would take to reduce/eliminate risks instead of having to manage them.


There's just no reason to have any group sports. It's simply not a need. It's a want that people are conditioned to think they need because of psychological dependency, like a drug.

By suggesting that the CDC is legitimating the risks, you are proving exactly what I said. There is just no reason to risk Covid19 spreading more to have sports. There are plenty of ways to exercise and stay healthy/fit without being around other people outside your household for longer than a shopping trip.

So my daughter has been to practices these last couple of weeks ... seems not anyone on either of the high school teams dropped out due to covid.

Positive coach is moving her up to the better high school team and has hints that she will be a starter on that team.