5
   

Einsteins special relativity nonsense

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 07:56 am
@layman,
You don't need to know anything in particular about the universe as a whole to determine which of two objects is moving relative to the other. As Feynman says, the "moving" object will be the one which has been accelerated. This is absolute, not relative, motion.
layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:02 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

You don't need to know anything in particular about the universe as a whole to determine which of two objects is moving relative to the other. As Feynman says, the "moving" object will be the one which has been accelerated. This is absolute, not relative, motion.


As I have noted before, in this context the term "relative" means "frame-dependent" while "absolute" means "frame-independent."
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:04 am
@layman,
You reject SR. This has nothing to do with SR. If you don't believe in clocks slowing down, then leave them out of the discussion. They aren't needed here... This is simple high school Newtonian Physics.

Let's just talk Newtonian Physics.

According to you, the Earth is truly moving in some direction with some high velocity. A point in the CMB frame will be truly motionless. Let's draw a picture; E is the Earth, R is the Rocket, C is a motionless point in the CMB Frame.

1. At the beginning of the trip to become motionless, the Rocket is firmly attached to the Earth. The Earth and the Rocket are both moving away from "C".

Code:
<---- E C
<---- R


2. The rocket applies thrust to accelerate. This changes it's velocity... an in this picture we to thrust our engines away from "C". The rocket will accelerate. It's speed vis-a-vis the Earth will increase. Its true speed (measured by the CMB frame) will decrease).

Code:
<---- E C
<--R


3. After enough time, the Rocket accelerates enough to math the stationary point in the CMB frame of reference. At this point it will be "truthfully" motionless.

Code:
<---- E C
R


Do you agree with this analyisis? If not, please correct it.




maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:05 am
@layman,
So are "relative" frames of reference, as described by Sir Isaac Newton valid?

If you agree with Newton, then I will feel we are making progress.
layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:07 am
@layman,
Take the "twin paradox" scenario. It is the travelling twin who "really" ages less (even when he, per SR mandate, mistakenly assumes he is motionless and that, therefore, it is the earth's clocks which have slowed down, not his).

This is the equivalent of saying that, for these purposes, the earth is the preferred frame. It is the earth's frame of reference which provides the correct answer, not the travelling frame.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:08 am
Layman wrote:
As Feynman says, the "moving" object will be the one which has been accelerated.


Feynman wrote:
So the way to state the rule is to say that the man who has felt the accelerations, who has seen things fall against the walls, and so on, is the one who would be the younger;


https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_16.html

You are misunderstanding, and misquoting Feynman.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:09 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Take the "twin paradox" scenario. It is the travelling twin who "really" ages less (even when he, per SR mandate, mistakenly assumes he is motionless and that, therefore, it is the earth's clocks which have slowed down, not his).

This is the equivalent of saying that, for these purposes, the earth is the preferred frame. It is the earth's frame of reference which provides the correct answer, not the travelling frame.


You reject SR. The Rocket problem has nothing to do with SR.

I would like you to use your understanding of Physics to work through the rocket problem that you started.

The issue we are having is with Newton and is from hundreds of years before Einstein was born.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:11 am
@maxdancona,
This example (with diagrams and anything) shows another contradiction in your reasoning.

You say "the moving object will be the one which has been accelerated".

However, considering the CMB frame as truth (which you want to do) I have shown that in your own line of thinking it is the motionless object that has been accelerated.

You are contradicting yourself.
layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:14 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You reject SR. This has nothing to do with SR.


This is where you persistently demonstrate your lack of understanding of the topic (which is SR, and its postulates).

Quote:
If you don't believe in clocks slowing down, then leave them out of the discussion. They aren't needed here... This is simple high school Newtonian Physics.


I do "believe in" clocks slowing down. as would be more than obvious if you read and understood any of my posts. What I don't "believe in" is the absurd SR claim that BOTH clocks slow down

Quote:
Let's just talk Newtonian Physics.


That's not the ultimate topic here, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it. It is definitely relevant to the topic.

I will address the balance of your post in my next post.





layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:15 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

So are "relative" frames of reference, as described by Sir Isaac Newton valid?

If you agree with Newton, then I will feel we are making progress.



I agree with Newton. But it appears that I disagree with you about the meaning, and significance of, the word "valid," as you appear to be using it.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:16 am
@layman,
Quote:
do "believe in" clocks slowing down. as would be more than obvious if you read and understood any of my posts. What I don't "believe in" is the absurd SR claim that BOTH clocks slow down


The problem is not one of belief, it is one of understanding. You don't understand the claim the both clocks slow down. That is why it is absurd to you.

The problem is that you don't understand frames of reference. That is why you are having problems with the Newtonian rocket problem, and when you try to explain it you are contradicting yourself.

In the rocket problem there are two different frames of reference. In one the rocket starts out motionless (on the launch pad) and ends up moving. In the other the rocket starts out moving (on the lanch pad since the Earth is moving) and ends up motionless.

Isaac Newton says that measurement of velocity depends on the frame of reference (again this is hundreds of years before Einstein). Depending on which frame of reference you use, you will calculate different values of velocity. Newton had no problems with this.

You need to understand Newton before you can understand SR. Hence the problem.

layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:18 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Layman wrote:
As Feynman says, the "moving" object will be the one which has been accelerated.


Feynman wrote:
So the way to state the rule is to say that the man who has felt the accelerations, who has seen things fall against the walls, and so on, is the one who would be the younger;


https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_16.html

You are misunderstanding, and misquoting Feynman.


No, I am not. Read the whole passage for context. He distinguishes between absolute and relative motion.

The reason the accelerated man is "younger" is because HE, not the earth, is the one "moving." Per the LT it is the "moving" clock (and only the moving clock) which will slow down with increased speed.
layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:21 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This example (with diagrams and anything) shows another contradiction in your reasoning.

You say "the moving object will be the one which has been accelerated".

However, considering the CMB frame as truth (which you want to do) I have shown that in your own line of thinking it is the motionless object that has been accelerated.

You are contradicting yourself.



What!? "Motionless" object? I have no clue what you're even talking about.

I am not contradicting myself at all. Let me go back and look at the balance of the post (which I haven't carefully read yet) and respond to it.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:22 am
@layman,
Answer my question about the CMB frame please https://able2know.org/topic/545476-18#post-6973124

In the CMB Frame, using your own logic

1. The Earth is moving, so a rocket attached to a launch pad on the Earth is moving at a considerable velocity.

2. The rocket fires its engine and accelerates toward a fixed point in the CMB frame.

3. If the rocket accelerates enough toward this fixed CMB point, it will accelerate to the point that it becomes truly motionless.

This is your own logic. And it contradicts your claim that objects that have accelerated are moving. If (as you say) the Earth is moving... then a rocket must accelerate in order to become truly motionless.

Please tell me where I am getting your logic wrong. You are contradicting yourself.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:25 am
@layman,
The question I am asking is "What do I have to do to get my rocket attached to the Earth to be motionless?"

Your view of Physics seems unable to address this simple question.
layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:25 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

According to you, the Earth is truly moving in some direction with some high velocity. A point in the CMB frame will be truly motionless. Let's draw a picture; E is the Earth, R is the Rocket, C is a motionless point in the CMB Frame.

1. At the beginning of the trip to become motionless, the Rocket is firmly attached to the Earth. The Earth and the Rocket are both moving away from "C".

Code:
<---- E C
<---- R


2. The rocket applies thrust to accelerate. This changes it's velocity... an in this picture we to thrust our engines away from "C". The rocket will accelerate. It's speed vis-a-vis the Earth will increase. Its true speed (measured by the CMB frame) will decrease).

Code:
<---- E C
<--R


3. After enough time, the Rocket accelerates enough to math the stationary point in the CMB frame of reference. At this point it will be "truthfully" motionless.

Code:
<---- E C
R


Do you agree with this analyisis? If not, please correct it.


Yeah, I generally agree with it. But we are not talking about a case where the rocket becomes "co-moving" with the CMB (which would mean it is not moving at all with respect to the remainder of the universe). I assume that you have not read my prior posts about the "proper" preferred frame in any given locality.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:28 am
@layman,
OK...


1. You are claiming that the object that has undergone an acceleration is "the one that is moving".

2. This is a clear example where the object that accelerated (the rocket) is motionless after the acceleration. And the object that didn't accelerate (the Earth) is moving as it always moves.

3. You claim to agree with the example.

4. That is a contradiction in your own line of thinking.

layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:34 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The problem is not one of belief, it is one of understanding. You don't understand the claim the both clocks slow down. That is why it is absurd to you.


I understand the claim perfectly. For that reason, I also understand that it is logically impossible and absurd.


Quote:
Isaac Newton says that measurement of velocity depends on the frame of reference (again this is hundreds of years before Einstein). Depending on which frame of reference you use, you will calculate different values of velocity. Newton had no problems with this.


Nor do I have any problems with it.

Quote:
You need to understand Newton before you can understand SR. Hence the problem.


No, the problem is on your end. You need to understand SR before you will be in any position to say how it relates to Newtonian mechanics.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:40 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Answer my question about the CMB frame please https://able2know.org/topic/545476-18#post-6973124


I believe I have already answered it. One problem with this discussion is that by the time I read, and respond to, one of your posts, you have made 3 or 4 additional posts demanding answers to them. And you just keep "moving on" never even going back to read the posts I have made in the interim.

Quote:
Please tell me where I am getting your logic wrong. You are contradicting yourself.


I think one place you are misunderstanding me is that you keep trying to equate the word "absolute" with "universally acknowledged." But I have already explained what the word absolute means in this context.

[/quote]
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 08:42 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The question I am asking is "What do I have to do to get my rocket attached to the Earth to be motionless?"

Your view of Physics seems unable to address this simple question.



Heh, again, you understand nothing. Did you ever even read the Smoot article I posted long ago? Did you ever even read the post where I brought it up again? Apparently not.
 

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