12
   

Iran launches missiles against US bases in Iraq.

 
 
McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 07:15 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The fact that Iran showed restraint, where Trump did not, meant that American soldiers did not die.


Trump showed a lot of restraint. Not sure where you got the idea that he didn't. He used exactly the right amount restraint to destroy the target and not get any innocent civilians.

He also did not immediately return any fire after Iran illegally fired several ballistic missiles into Iraq at American targets. Seems like a lot of restraint.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 07:21 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
Is this good for America or not?

It is good no Americans died. It is also good for the world and they need to get on board and tell Iran enough. Trump seems to be determined enough to see this through. Are you under the impression that no more Americans will not die to keep us and parts of the world free? It does not work that way.


Most of the world thinks that Trump is an idiot.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 07:26 pm
@McGentrix,
Do you really think that Trump's foreign policy is intelligent or are you just towing the partisan line?

I have been perfectly willing to criticize Democratic presidents when they did things that I felt were stupid. Obama fucked up with the red line in Syria, I had no trouble saying that at the time. I had no trouble admitting when I agreed with George Bush on foreign policy, and when the Trump makes a rational argument, I will agree if it makes sense. Conservatives seem to have a mindless loyalty to Trump that is difficult to understand.

Some of you seem to think that America can do whatever it wants with no consequences and no costs. If you are honestly saying that you accept the risks and the costs of Trump's foreign policy, but you think it is the logical way forward... of all the other possible ways forward then I can respect that.

The rationales given for Trump's foreign policy don't even logical sense. It is "America **** Yeah!", except in real life with no thought and a denial of the facts.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 08:19 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Most of the world thinks that Trump is an idiot.

I do not give a **** about the rest of the world. They are globalists. America stands in their way because of our freedom. They want us gone.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 08:28 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Iran is telling the world that compared to Trump, they are the adults in the room.

They may well be saying that. Iran's government are crazed lunatics, and crazed lunatics say all sorts of weird nonsense.

But it certainly isn't a plausible claim.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 08:29 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Are you saying you would have rather seen American soldiers die?

It is hypothetically possible that the massive bombardment of Iran could have resulted in the death of an American soldier, but it would be unlikely.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 08:31 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The fact that Iran showed restraint, where Trump did not, meant that American soldiers did not die.

It mostly meant that a bunch of Iranians didn't die.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 08:32 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Most of the world thinks that Trump is an idiot.

I suspect that Mr. Trump will be too busy to come to these people's aid if they are ever in need.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 08:33 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Conservatives seem to have a mindless loyalty to Trump that is difficult to understand.

There are some policies that I strongly disagree with (abandoning the Kurds for example). I would not characterize these policy differences as a matter of intelligence or rationality however. I merely disagree with the policy.

The reason why I support Mr. Trump despite occasional policy differences is because progressives are out to violate everyone's Second Amendment rights, and Mr. Trump protects America from these progressives.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 08:38 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Iran's government are crazed lunatics, and crazed lunatics say all sorts of weird nonsense.

They are "Twelvers". A sect of the Shiites that believe in the 12th Madi who has been hiding in a cave since Muhammad died is ready to spring out and help Jesus end the world. They plan to help him out with a nuclear strike. No, nothing unstable about them.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:11 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Do you really think that Trump's foreign policy is intelligent or are you just towing the partisan line?


I never tow the partisan line. You mistake my agreeing with what people of like mind do as towing a line. I think Trump is kind of like Roosevelt. Speak softly and carry a big stick. Except Trump doesn't speak softly. He is loud and boisterous and addicted to the Twitter. I have said previously about my desire to see him tweet less. I have zero, none, zilch misgivings about the strike on a known terrorist. I generally agree with Trumps foreign policy.
I agree with the decision of moving the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem, I agree with the decision to tighten the screws on Iran with further sanctions. I like that he had some talks with N. Korea but am sad that nothing came of it. I like that Trump has called out China for its currency manipulation. I like that he has called out NATO on its failure to hold up its end on defense spending. I like how Trump has armed Ukraine against Russian aggression. The list is longer but I think you get the idea.

maxdancona wrote:
I have been perfectly willing to criticize Democratic presidents when they did things that I felt were stupid. Obama fucked up with the red line in Syria, I had no trouble saying that at the time. I had no trouble admitting when I agreed with George Bush on foreign policy, and when the Trump makes a rational argument, I will agree if it makes sense. Conservatives seem to have a mindless loyalty to Trump that is difficult to understand.

Some of you seem to think that America can do whatever it wants with no consequences and no costs. If you are honestly saying that you accept the risks and the costs of Trump's foreign policy, but you think it is the logical way forward... of all the other possible ways forward then I can respect that.

The rationales given for Trump's foreign policy don't even logical sense. It is "America **** Yeah!", except in real life with no thought and a denial of the facts.



You not getting it doesn't make it bad. It's just you not liking it.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:21 pm
@McGentrix,
You lost me when you accused me of "hating America". Factually, I don't hate America. Quite the contrary. I took this to mean that you think disagreeing with Trump is "hating America".

I can't read your mind... and I would love to hear what you were actually thinking when you made this rather personal attack.

What I did was try to understand the military strategy of Iran's actions. If you are going to understand the conflict with any intellectual depth, you need to understand the overall strategy and the reason for the actions taken by each side.

I am also grateful that Iran didn't escalate. For all of Oralloy's bluster, it seems clear that Iran could have killed Americans. Those missiles hit their targets. The attack was in the early morning and the targets were away from where there were likely to be people.

None of these counts as hating America.

I don't have a problem with you defending your positions. I wish you would do so intelligently and with some depth.

McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:31 pm
@maxdancona,
Ok, first of all, it was tongue in cheek. Thought we knew each other well enough (so far as internet people go who argue with each occasionally and agree with each other occasionally goes) that you would get that.
But...
Did you read what you wrote?
Quote:
Did you all see the pictures of what the Iranians did?

Zero casualties with precision hits on specific targets.

The message is pretty clear... "we could hit you harder, but we chose not to".

Iran is telling the world that compared to Trump, they are the adults in the room.


Read that from my (or another person of Conservative/Libertarian bend) perspective.
Did I see the picture? Sure, looks like Iranian incompetence. So incompetent that they killed no one. The message was very clear "Go away or we will taunt you a second time."

Your whole statement comes of as an elitist American hating snob that is just looking for another reason to hate America.

Now, do I honestly think you hate America? Hell no. Let me repeat for any one else reading:
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST PEOPLE POSTING ON A2K HATES AMERICA.

Except Blatham. I think he secretly harbors a grudge.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:39 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:

Your whole statement comes of as an elitist American hating snob that is just looking for another reason to hate America.


I am sorry to hear that. It makes intellectual discussion with you impossible. To understand what is going on, we need to be consider what is happening from more than one perspective.

I have no problem with you taking the position that Iran actually intended to kill Americans... as long as you can look at the facts on both sides of this issue so we can see if it makes sense. I personally find that unlikely given the fact that the missile strikes did appear to hit precise targets away from the barracks. And, most non-partisan military analysts seem to agree (I did read about one general who disagreed, but he provided no rational argument).

My biggest gripe is that you are shutting down any possibility of having an intelligent conversation. Give me the chance to change my mind and maybe learn something and I will appreciate it.


oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:40 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
For all of Oralloy's bluster, it seems clear that Iran could have killed Americans. Those missiles hit their targets. The attack was in the early morning and the targets were away from where there were likely to be people.

Had those warheads landed directly on the bunkers that were shielding our soldiers, they still would not have harmed anyone.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:44 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Had those warheads landed directly on the bunkers that were shielding our soldiers, they still would not have harmed anyone.


This jingoistic bluster with no factual basis, no reason and no room for doubt is what I find frustrating. America **** Yeah!
McGentrix
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:45 pm
@maxdancona,
On this subject I don't think we can have an intellectual conversation. You either feel that the US was right in taking the opportunity to kill a terrorist leader that had been and was currently planning to take American lives or you don't.

Not a lot or wiggle room there.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:51 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This jingoistic bluster with no factual basis, no reason and no room for doubt is what I find frustrating. America **** Yeah!

What are you talking about? Bunkers are made to resist explosions. That is their purpose.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 09:58 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

On this subject I don't think we can have an intellectual conversation. You either feel that the US was right in taking the opportunity to kill a terrorist leader that had been and was currently planning to take American lives or you don't.

Not a lot or wiggle room there.


I completely disagree. Whether or not the US was right is only one issue. This thread isn't even directly about that.

- First of all, this is a complicated issue. You can believe that the assassination was the right decision and still accept the risks and costs to the US for doing it. You can believe that the assassination was the wrong strategic move and still believe that the US was morally right. Or you can believe it is morally wrong. Or you can look at the arguments on both side and say **** it.

I think intellectual honesty means admitting the valid points on the other side. I think that the assassination was strategic mistake... I think the added risk of war isn't worth the benefit and that it hurts our influence. I have no problems admitting that there are valid reasons for the assassination. He was the head of a terrorist group and killing him puts pressure on Iran.

- Secondly, you can work to understand the strategic situation no matter what you opinion of the assassination is. I believe that all out war would be very bad for the US and worse for Iran (but that's how asymmetric war works). I think both sides want to avoid a full war.

Iran needs to draw a line. They can't let an assassination of a top leader go unanswered any more than we can. The question is where the new line is drawn.

- It is ridiculous to think that there are only two points of view. This is a complicated set of issues. Thoughtful people will make up their mind independently on each issue rather than falling lockstep in to one ideological camp or the other.


McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2020 10:12 pm
@maxdancona,
I am willing to bet that the pro's and con's were weighed prior to this, or any aggression with Iran. You have no idea how many people work in the Pentagon drawing up contingency plans for almost anything that could happen. There are plans for this event, there are plans for if they missed, there are plans for if we wounded him, there are plans for him not being there at all and still taking shot.

You, and many others, seem to be under the impression that Trump just looked at a menu and chose "option 12: shoot a missile at him and see what happens".

This is what happens when the popular media does nothing but berate the current administration daily. The people begin to believe it.
 

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