15
   

The Military Draft and You (or someone you may know)...?

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:34 am
The Iraq war was billed as a cakewalk, short and quick. But it turned out to be a war that keeps giving to this day.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:36 am
@edgarblythe,
Looking back, five decades later, I am not so strongly against conscription.
It was different when I myself was affected by it.

edgar wrote:
This keeps the rest of society removed from the process and emotionally no more involved than a fan at a baseball game.

Perhaps less than such a fan, because fans have at least some knowledge about what they support.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I would support a draft, with no loopholes to the wealthy. I believe it would cause politicians to develop a 'conscience,' if their own children went through what the others experience.
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:33 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
But the general added a somber warning: “We can’t consider this as an isolated action. As with all such actions it will impact the dynamics of the region, and Iran will likely feel compelled to respond in kind. There is the potential for a stair-step escalation of attacks and we must think several moves ahead to determine how far we will take this — and what the new level of conflict we are prepared to engage in.”

nyt
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:38 am
@edgarblythe,
I think the first people who should be drafted are those who support the draft, regardless of their age.

It's pretty easy for progressives to demand to send other people into battle against their will. Less easy, I bet, if progressives had to go themselves.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:39 am
As one who was conscripted, there were some positives to having the draft, but not necessarily ones which fostered military discipline.

I don't believe we'll ever see wide scale conscription again but, were it to happen, women should definitely be eligible.

The practical argument against conscription (as opposed to the political one) is that modern weapons systems require so much more technical training that professional service people are needed, people who won't cycle out after two years.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:39 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
The Iraq war was billed as a cakewalk, short and quick. But it turned out to be a war that keeps giving to this day.

Nation building is bad.

Create a desert, call it peace, and bring the troops home by Christmas.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  3  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:39 am
On the topic: I just hope there is not a draft, I have granddaughters, grand nieces and nephews... who would be called. If they make to decision to join, knowing the risk in today's world, that is one thing. I would be sorrowful and prayerful, but I would have no choice but to accept it.

We shouldn't still be in Iraq anyway, never should have been in the first place. Not sure why we are there or in Afghanistan after all this time.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:41 am
@revelette3,
We're in Afghanistan because of 9/11.
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:45 am
@oralloy,
9-11-2001, nineteen years ago. It is ridicules we are still there. The reason has become unending. No wonder we are hated.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:51 am
@revelette3,
Those who hate us are easily killed.

What is the problem with us still being there? It's a minimal force that suffers few casualties.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 10:55 am
Draft reinstatement is just one phase. We also need to elect politicians who believe in war only as a last resort. Right now, cash is king. We've got to put a stop to that.

One crying necessity is for congress to take back its power to declare war.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 11:58 am
@edgarblythe,
I agree with war being a last resort and with Congress needing to be the ones to declare war.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 11:59 am
@McGentrix,
Quote:
As has been pointed out by many sources, the US spends more on defense than the next 10 countries combined so I would assume it would be a quick and dirty war. US, Israeli and Saudi forces would quickly strike and wipe all radar, anti-aircraft batteries, aircraft and munition factories in a matter of hours. We would then go to the table and negotiate while the people of Iran decided the next move.
There would be no nation building after.

The comparison is Serbia. A war with Iran would consist of continuous bombing, no troops at all, no need for a draft, no rebuilding, no winning of hearts and minds. Unlike Serbia, we would have no allies, there would be no surrender and no peace, pretty much ever. We would just bomb them until we get tired of seeing people get blown up in high resolution video footage.

Japan is still hated in China today for atrocities committed almost 80 years ago. Leveling Iran would effectively make China and Russia the moral authorities in the world for the rest of the century. Note that for all of the blathering coming out of Congress, Serbia was done as a "police action" and while Congress expressed support, no war vote was taken.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 12:04 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
Leveling Iran would effectively make China and Russia the moral authorities in the world for the rest of the century.

Only in the eyes of progressives, and progressives are going side with terrorists and evil dictators against America no matter what we do.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 12:08 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
We would just bomb them until we get tired of seeing people get blown up in high resolution video footage.

I think if war happens we will confine our airstrikes to legitimate military targets, and stop bombing once we run out of targets.

But it will be a very bad idea for anyone to be caught downwind of the Uranium Conversion Facility at Isfahan when it is taken out. The collateral damage from that strike is going to be pretty grim.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 12:29 pm
Quote:

Charles W. Dunne (bio)

Whether Americans realize it or not, the United States has just declared war on Iran. And, in part because the declaration was less than clear, that could be even more dangerous than it sounds.

When the U.S. on Sunday assassinated Qassem Soleimani, a top Iranian general who directed violent anti-U.S. campaigns for more than 15 years, it transformed a long-simmering proxy tit-for-tat between the two sworn enemies to one of direct military confrontation — one to which Iran will have almost no choice but to react to forcefully (and has indeed already promised “revenge”). This could easily mean targeting U.S. troops in the Middle East, as well as U.S. embassies and military facilities farther afield, and American cyber assets throughout the world. It could also lead to attacks on U.S. allies such as Saudi Arabia and Israel, which carries with it the risk of a wider regional conflagration.

Until now, the Trump administration’s strategy of “maximum pressure” on Iran — pulling out of the nuclear deal while ratcheting up sanctions and other forms of U.S. pressure — seemed driven by the goal of forcing some sort of peaceful accommodation with Tehran over its nuclear program and regional policies, but this abrupt escalation has cast all that into doubt and led both the U.S. and Iran into dangerous and uncharted waters. Cooler heads, on both sides, may prevail, with the immediate prospect of hot conflict cooling into a colder war. But the game seems to have been significantly changed.

Among other perils, the move suggests the U.S. hasn’t yet thought out its endgame: Where does it want to be at the conclusion of all this? What does it want to accomplish? What U.S. contingency plans are in place for when things, inevitably, go off course? The fact that these questions are apparently unanswered means that all the regular risks of undertaking war, especially in the tinder box of the Middle East, are exponentially more dangerous because of the impulsive approach President Donald Trump has taken here.

And then there’s the matter of what course the war takes in the short-term. What costs, for instance, is the U.S. prepared to suffer? That question generally guides strategy and cost-benefit analysis in waging a campaign.

But we have no indication that Trump has evaluated this issue or is operating under a guiding principle of what consequences will and won’t be tolerated. Previous wars, and even limited regional conflicts, almost invariably have come after lengthy planning efforts, some years in advance, to sort out strategies and outcomes favoring U.S. interests (and generally were accompanied by information provided officially or unofficially by the Pentagon that made these efforts clear, much in contrast to Sunday’s attack).

That isn’t to say there was no justification for the assassination. The Defense Department said in a statement about the killing that Soleimani “was actively developing plans to attack American diplomats and service members in Iraq and throughout the region” and blamed him for a recent string of attacks on U.S. bases in Iraq, including a Dec. 27 strike in Iraq that killed an American contractor. Trump also blamed Iran for a militia-led attack on the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad Tuesday that forced U.S. diplomats to hole up in safe areas.

So there’s no doubt he deserved his fate, as I learned during my tenure on the National Security Council Iraq staff in 2005-07. The U.S. State Department estimates Iran — largely under the leadership of Soleimani’s Quds Force — was responsible for the deaths of 603 American troops since 2003, accounting for 17 percent of all deaths of U.S. personnel in Iraq from 2003-11.

But in waging war, that’s not enough. The U.S. needs to be smart, not just right. There’s no doubt that whatever the utility of taking out an evil man, the overall goal for the U.S. should be to strengthen, not weaken, its position in the Middle East. Yet within hours of the U.S. action, Iraqi legislators upped their demands that U.S. troops (now numbering around 5,000) should be voted out of the country, demands that the lame-duck Iraqi prime minister has reluctantly acceded to. Massive protests by Iraqis against government corruption and Iranian schemes to control their country are now likely to turn decisively against the United States, which had just recently enjoyed a brief opportunity to profit from Tehran’s mistakes.

And then there’s the matter of Iranian retaliation. It will most likely utilize its militia allies in Iraq to step up attacks on bases where the U.S. maintains a presence, and potentially attack American air and ground movements with the country. Combined with political pressures from the enraged Iraqi legislature and public, this could quickly make the U.S. presence in the country untenable.

Iran will also choose less obvious battlefields, along the lines of the murderous bombing of the U.S. facility in Khobar Towers, Saudi Arabia, in 1996, or the bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, by the Iranian-backed Hezbollah in 1983. American personnel and their families in Europe and elsewhere may not be immune, either, if past is prologue.

In short, Iran can be expected to respond asymmetrically, using terror networks, militia proxies, and deniability to wreak havoc on the U.S. diplomatic and military machine in the Middle East. It will seek to dictate the terms of its battle with U.S. — the places, the timing and the tactics — hoping to keep America off-balance in an election year and calculating that the pain it can inflict will be disproportionate to any gain the U.S. might expect from this new war.

Ironically, Washington’s best hope for overmatching Tehran and bringing the conflict to a successful end may lie in expanding the war to include conventional military targets and force-on-force confrontations, where America’s superior technology, weapons and strategic depth can come into play and prevent Tehran from dictating this war’s script.

By playing to Tehran's weaknesses, the United States may best be able to limit loss of life and create a situation in which negotiations, perhaps brokered by the European Union or a trusted Arab go-between with deep ties to Iran, such as Oman, could lay the groundwork for a halt to hostilities and maybe even the basis for a new diplomatic deal. Whether the administration's endgame includes such a strategy or is simply reactive its still unclear.

American leaders have known how to make the best of a tough situation before. As General Dwight D. Eisenhower is believed to have said of his World War II game plan, “Whenever I run into a problem I can’t solve, I always make it bigger.” The Trump administration has certainly done just that. We can only hope that what comes next will enjoy something of Eisenhower’s success.


https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/death-iran-s-top-general-qassem-soleimani-means-america-has-ncna1110306

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/death-iran-s-top-general-qassem-soleimani-means-america-has-ncna1110306

Seems sort of a war hawk, so, maybe those cheering the action taken Sunday, will read it and take a somber look at it, rather than acting cocky and smug and uncaring about it.

If I had to sum up what he is saying as to where we go from here after that impulsive action, I guess it can be in the following paragraph.

Quote:
Ironically, Washington’s best hope for overmatching Tehran and bringing the conflict to a successful end may lie in expanding the war to include conventional military targets and force-on-force confrontations, where America’s superior technology, weapons and strategic depth can come into play and prevent Tehran from dictating this war’s script.


My question is why now? From what I have read in the last few days, he has been carrying out militant actions against US interest in the region since the start of the Iraq war in 2003. Was the threat he posed such as to be worth the more probable consequences more than the threat he has been all these years already? Wasn't there alternatives?
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 12:37 pm
@revelette3,
revelette3 wrote:
My question is why now?

@rcallimachi wrote:
The official says that following the attack on an Iraqi base which killed an American contractor circa Dec. 27, Trump was presented a menu of options for how to retaliate. Killing Suleimani was the "far out option".

Trump chose a more moderate option which involved the Dec. 29 strikes on the positions of an Iranian-backed militia. Then came the protest at the gates of the US embassy in Baghdad.

It was after the embassy protests that the president, according to one US official, chose the Suleimani option.

The entire string of 17 tweets is here:
http://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/1213421769777909761
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 12:43 pm
@revelette3,
revelette3 wrote:
My question is why now?


https://i.imgur.com/xilFlB1l.jpg
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 12:45 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Standing up to evil and confronting it is always the best option.

Mr. Trump did good.
 

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