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The Democrats Gloat Thread

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 10:44 pm
blatham wrote:
I don't think any of this is much about being right or being wrong, cyclo.

Last week, georgeob wrote a post wherein he said he had concluded that he'd been wrong regarding the wisdom/necessity of Bush's war on Iraq.

He's the only person on a2k who has been a long time republican and supporter of this administration who has had the intellectual courage/capacity to change course. The only one.

We all are wrong sometimes. But without that honorable capacity and that integrity to put truth and accuracy above party/ideological fealty and one's own past public statements, it's guaranteed we'll stay wrong and unsmart.

I tipped my hat to george on that post. I tip it again.


blatham, you continue to labor under an illusion born of your conceit: That tico, foxfyre, I and others are sitting in front of our computers and screaming "Damn blatham and all of his lefty buddies! I know they are right about Iraq but am too much of an intellectual coward to change my public opinion!"

If george has changed his mind and acknowledged what he believes was a prior mistake in judgment then bully for him. I'm glad, for him, that he has found what he believes to be clarity.

Now he's wrong too.

If I change my mind you can bet I will let you know, just so I too can get a tip of your hat.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 12:20 am
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
While I have discussed the "achievements" of Republican candidates and elected officials, I have also discussed the "failings" of Republican candidates.

Where, where, where - how can I have missed all those instances? Tell me more!


True, there aren't that many instances of Repubican failings, but that's hardly my problem, is it? But regardless of this, the point is I have indeed addressed said failings. The answer to "where," is "here on A2K." If you are asking me to identify thread or post, that is a research project I believe to be better suited to someone of your anal proclivities.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
For that matter, I have discussed the "achievements" and merits of Democrat candidates and electeds

About this too!


Ditto.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I'm trying to follow your logic, nimh, but I'm confused. Maybe you can help me out with a few points:

Did Tom Kean have an opponent in the Republican primary? If so, was Kean my candidate in the Primary, or did I support the loser?

And when David Duke (google him if you are unfamiliar) campaigned for office of US Senate, and President, I believe he did so on the Republican ticket. Was he also my candidate? Or would he only have become "my" candidate if he won the primary?

I think if you identify yourself as a Republican, as you did again in this thread, it is not all too wild to describe the candidates that your party puts up for election as, in principle, your candidates, no.


Yes, it is absurd and stupid.

Unless I represent or work for the RNC, in which case you could legitimately refer to all Republican candidates as "my" candidates.

You didn't answer me: Was Kean "my" candidate during the primary election, or was his opponent, or were they both "my" candidate?

Quote:
Of course this holds less true the lower a candidate's office - what have you to do with a school board member in Idaho - but for the candidates your party puts up for the national Senate? Seems matter of par enough, as long as you havent specified that this specific Republican, you dont agree with.


No, the man isn't my candidate until I support the man as my candidate. Maybe you always vote along party lines, but I don't.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Side question, because I'm unsure to what lengths your logic will go: If Duke was "my" candidate, does that make me a rascist, or a supporter of the KKK?

If your party would put up a man like Duke as its official candidate for national office and you would not, as registered Republican, explicitly distance yourself from that, I would certainly find that troublesome.


But based on your comments in this thread, even if I disclaimed him as "my" candidate, which I have tried to do with Kean, you would try and tell me that he is still "my" candidate simply because he is registered as a Republican, and I am registered as a Republican.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:
Going after my use of the word "your" when I pointed that out, I suppose, is one way to distract from that rather typical attempt at spin. Succeeded, too.

How is that "spin," nimh? That was your entire point, I thought: That Kean was "my" candidate. That is the point I thought we've been discussing, and the point to which I've taken issue. How can you characterize that as "spin"?

Again you have perhaps skimmed my post too fast, and missed the point. Your spin in question was to pretend that Kean was just a NJ state senator in order to belittle his importance - conveniently ignoring the fact that he is also a particularly high-profile Republican candidate for the national Senate.


Huh? Which post are talking about that you think I skimmed too fast? You were referring to your "use of the word 'your'," which I believed meant you were referring to your post where you referred to Kean as "your own candidate," referring to me.

There is no spin here. The point was, and remains, that he is just a NJ state senator who is running for US Senator. He is not "my" candidate, and you were incorrect to refer to him as such.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Now, if you now try to slip out of this discussion by claiming you didn't actually really mean that he was "my" candidate, THAT would be a fine example of spin.

It would, indeed. But not really my style.


Glad to hear that.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I never said you happiliy accepted snideness from your own side, but you don't seem to have a problem with snideness from your own side being directed towards those on the other side.

Huh? I thought I had been quite explicit already, I'm sorry I have to spell it out: I have several times criticized Blatham - as I fiercely criticized Tartarin, as well, and others too - for being snide to the other side.


Where, where, where - how can I have missed all those instances? Tell me more!

Have you criticized Setanta as well? Where, where where?

Tartarin appears to be a poster who last posted in December, 2003, about 10 months before my first post at A2K. Was that the last time you criticized all these leftists for being snide to "the other side"?

Quote:
What instances did you think I was talking about? Blatham is unfailingly polite to those on his own side, so obviously I was talking about instances of his demeanour to those on the other. It's been a bone of contention between us at least a handful of times. It is exactly the camps-mentality sniping between "us" and "them" that I long made it a point to criticize, because I thought it so pointless.


I've never seen it. I can honestly tell you I have never seen you take such a stand against your leftist brethren. I'm not saying you never have ... I'm saying I've never seen it.

Quote:
However, I must admit to seeing ever less a point in doing so. It is a wasted effort, and not only because we have ever new liberal dimwits coming in (and, on a distinct note, I will never convince Blatham either). Also because people like you on the other side have such an extremely selective perspective that you end up saying stuff like this here, after apparently ignoring or deciding to forget a dozen posts of mine you must have come across proving the opposite.


Eh? Wrong. But you have demonstrated time and again your own selective perspective.

Quote:
Because even should a liberal strive to choose a more substantive style, plenty of you on the other side would prefer to ignore it, in order to keep on pretending that, you know, all those liberals are bitter, mad and made for losing.


I see. So it is your belief that the leftists on this site continue to post rancorous and nasty posts aimed at conservative posters, merely because if they were to do otherwise, the conservative posters would just ignore their newly-found civility? Interesting.

Quote:
Whats the bloody point, in face of that? Why even take the dialogue, or what passes for it, seriously at all, barring the odd excepted individual poster?


In the face of what? The point your trying to make is absurd.

Quote:
Thats therefore what I have been doing - I find myself just increasingly unable to take the more scornful, partisan stuff like yours seriously. With that, I readily admit, has come a loss of dignified demeanour, and to some extent a mirroring of your exact behaviour. But on the other hand I've gained a lot of extra time that I used to spend on earnest discussion with rabid rightwingers to spend on having fun instead.


I assure you, nimh, and you can check this out if you have fabricated a memory that indicates otherwise: I have never, not once, uttered a nasty barb toward a leftist poster on this site that was not delivered in response to a similar barb being aimed at me. Many times I have entered a thread, attempted to discuss a topic civilly, just to have a leftist come in and drop a nasty-gram at me. My failing is to rise to the bait and respond in kind (although normally with more civility yet).
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 12:21 am
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Quote:
Of course that means you're going to be even more self-righteous, hypocricial, pompous, sanctimonious. snooty, patronizing, pseudo-intellectual, and priggish than ever before.

It certainly is no reasonable person's description of Nimh.

It wasn't a description of nimh, rabbit.

Yes, you silly bunny.. how can you mischaracterise how Tico actually describes me, in such a way. Trying to peddle your "false memory" about how he would explicitly write that about me.

Instead, what he did say about me was regarding

Ticomaya wrote:
the level of smug, self-righteous, pompous, hypocritical, and sanctimonious posts created by the likes of you and blatham.

See how distinct his position actually is from what you held it to be? It's really a shame, how those misremembered impressions of ours sketch such an unfair picture of the man's posts.


You can infer from this exchange that I do not believe you to be snooty, patronizing, pseudo-intellectual, or priggish.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 12:22 am
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
And I do take issue with you, and you are more than welcome to research this point exhaustively, and as you set about that task I will remind you of the several prior occasions you have done so, only to be forced to come back and report that you had, indeed been wrong about me.

I can only remember one of those several prior occasions, but I will take your word for it that there were indeed several.

In fact, in the spirit of the noteworthy point Blatham made in his last post, I will take this acknowledgement that I am, indeed, able and likely to engage in "exhaustive research" of my own posts when challenged by someone about my assertions, and honestly report back on any mistakes I found myself to have made, as a compliment.


You may certainly do what you wish, but that is not what I said.

I was referring to you "exhaustively researching" my posts, and reporting back that you were wrong about me.

But, in the spirit of the noteworthy point Blatham made in the post you are referring to, I acknowledge that you are indeed able to honestly confirm your mistakes, and have done so on several prior occasions. I, myself, have not found any such mistakes, so I have been unable to do this as of yet.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 06:04 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
blatham wrote:
I don't think any of this is much about being right or being wrong, cyclo.

Last week, georgeob wrote a post wherein he said he had concluded that he'd been wrong regarding the wisdom/necessity of Bush's war on Iraq.

He's the only person on a2k who has been a long time republican and supporter of this administration who has had the intellectual courage/capacity to change course. The only one.

We all are wrong sometimes. But without that honorable capacity and that integrity to put truth and accuracy above party/ideological fealty and one's own past public statements, it's guaranteed we'll stay wrong and unsmart.

I tipped my hat to george on that post. I tip it again.


blatham, you continue to labor under an illusion born of your conceit: That tico, foxfyre, I and others are sitting in front of our computers and screaming "Damn blatham and all of his lefty buddies! I know they are right about Iraq but am too much of an intellectual coward to change my public opinion!"

If george has changed his mind and acknowledged what he believes was a prior mistake in judgment then bully for him. I'm glad, for him, that he has found what he believes to be clarity.

Now he's wrong too.

If I change my mind you can bet I will let you know, just so I too can get a tip of your hat.


You've had a few 'tips' in the past, finn. But for a significant stretch now, you've not done anything tippable.

Read "Fiasco". The author has covered the Pentagon for the WP since about 2000 and had the same beat at the Wall Street Journal for seventeen years previously. And there's a couple of group Pulitizer's on his mantle. Smart guy and he's not any party hack or ideologue. One of the really educational aspects (for me, I've never studied military stuff before at all) arises out of his understanding of military matters and his wide and diverse relationships with military people from the top down. I'm developing a real respect for the smarts and capabilities of military guys/gals where they are smart and capable. I had to get over a bit of a anti-militarism bump in my noggin. I suspect that george (I'll ask him when I see a post from him again) has shifted his conclusions in great part from his understanding and connections with the military community. Iraq is going very badly and Afghanistan is following close behind. And really everything that has happened was predicted as possible/likely by many (that's a big "many") but the civilians heading up the administration have been abysmally incompetent and arrogant.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 06:10 am
tico said
Quote:
I, myself, have not found any such mistakes, so I have been unable to do this as of yet.


Well, then you'll have some free time on your hands. I started a thread a longish time ago titled "What will bush and rove do now". You can look over that one. I'm thinking slightly greater than about 50% right but memory can play tricks.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 07:13 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:
Again you have perhaps skimmed my post too fast, and missed the point. Your spin in question was to pretend that Kean was just a NJ state senator in order to belittle his importance - conveniently ignoring the fact that he is also a particularly high-profile Republican candidate for the national Senate.

Huh? Which post are talking about that you think I skimmed too fast? You were referring to your "use of the word 'your'," which I believed meant you were referring to your post where you referred to Kean as "your own candidate," referring to me.

There is no spin here. The point was, and remains, that he is just a NJ state senator who is running for US Senator. He is not "my" candidate, and you were incorrect to refer to him as such.

The post I was referring to was, of course, the one I just quoted again - right there, in the bit you have now quoted again in turn.

Your spin was, when confronted with Kean demanding Rumsfeld's resignation, to pretend that Kean is a virtual nobody - what's the import of what a NJ state senator says? Conveniently ignoring the fact that Kean is not just another NJ state senator, but also the arguably single most high-profile Republican national Senate candidate to challenge a Democratic incumbent - who therefore has had Cheney, Bush I and a slay of other national Republicans campaigning for him.

That was where you were spinning, in order to belittle the significance of Kean's statement. I called you on that, and whether with that specific purpose in mind or not, you immediately distracted the conversation into one about my use of the word "your" in my post.

Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:
Because even should a liberal strive to choose a more substantive style, plenty of you on the other side would prefer to ignore it, in order to keep on pretending that, you know, all those liberals are bitter, mad and made for losing.


I see. So it is your belief that the leftists on this site continue to post rancorous and nasty posts aimed at conservative posters, merely because if they were to do otherwise, the conservative posters would just ignore their newly-found civility? Interesting.

Err, no: as I specifically noted in my post, I was talking about myself, my own individual me - not about "the leftists on this site".

Me, I've long made a stretch of an effort to avoid and forego the partisan sniping and ridicule. To insist, both in practicing it myself and in calling others on their posts, on a better discourse than that. I did that to the point where I suspiciously seemed to become the A2K conservatives' favourite liberal - I almost got worried when Jer, O'Bill, Timberlandko, Lash and Georgeob1 all piled on with praise within just two pages there - with just one liberal chiming in. ;-)

But being confronted with your type for long years now, I've just stopped seeing the point anymore over the course of time. And have become more willing to go for the fun and games that Blatham has pioneered in such floridly articulate fashion, instead.

Ticomaya wrote:
Have you criticized Setanta as well? Where, where where?

Tartarin appears to be a poster who last posted in December, 2003, about 10 months before my first post at A2K. Was that the last time you criticized all these leftists for being snide to "the other side"?

Err, no... it was just one of the longest-running and fiercest exchanges, which is why it came to mind.

Yes, I've had words with Setanta too (but then who hasnt).

And Amigo (notably in the Venezuela Watch thread)

And Freedom4Free.

And Lola.

And Blatham.

Specifically about the latter two's defence of using the Republicans' dirty tracks "against themselves" - never mind that the dirty tricks they were referring to were Rove's, Rumsfeld's and the like, and their retaliatory targets individual Republican posters here. Ive repeatedly disagreed with the disconnect I saw there.

Yeah, et cetera.

Ticomaya wrote:
I assure you, nimh, and you can check this out if you have fabricated a memory that indicates otherwise: I have never, not once, uttered a nasty barb toward a leftist poster on this site that was not delivered in response to a similar barb being aimed at me.

Heh. The complete absence of the capability of critical self-reflection was already abundantly clear without you expliciting it like this - though I see you even one-upped yourself in your following post:

Ticomaya wrote:
acknowledge that you are indeed able to honestly confirm your mistakes [..]. I, myself, have not found any such mistakes, so I have been unable to do this as of yet.

This pretty much sums it all up.

It is redundant to note that this, of course, says more about you than about your posts.

The belief in your own infallibality - your honest conviction that you honestly have never found yourself to have made any mistake here - is I suppose part of what makes your recognize GWB as a kindred spirit.

It also provides pretty much the bottom line evidence of why it is really of little use to engage in serious discussion with you, other than for entertainment value.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 08:30 am
blatham wrote:
Quote:
... the acknowledgement of fault as representing weakness.

This is such a curiosity. Can I gab?

There is a cultural "wisdom" which we see in any number of phrases that suggests the ability to admit error is a sign of commendable internal strength, eg "A big man can admit when he's wrong". And its a ubiquitous theme in mythologies, from the Greek (and Shakespearean) attention to the failings of "hubris" or, pointedly, in the most celebrated story of Washington admitting his responsibility for cutting down the cherry tree. Even American Westerns are packed with portrayals of this contrast...slow talking, earth-attached, honorable John Wayne can, after a slightly uncomfortable 'harumph', fess up that he'd been wrong. The bad guy never really can. He's too shallow, too afraid, too self-concerned, too deceitful in all things. If he does admit wrong, he begins right then to become a good guy. Admitting error redeems.

It's even a fundamental running through our notions of what Jesus said and why he said it. "Let him who has not sinned throw the first stone."

The first time I can recall thinking about this stuff was in Grade four or five where we had a teacher who, when corrected on a factual matter by a student, went a bit berserk. From that point on, I began to conceive of (and use) teachers as a sort of guinea pig for my sociological studies. Karmic justice made it inevitable, of course, that I'd become a teacher myself.

But all of this really focuses attention on this administration (and so many of its supporters). What is going on? Why function so openly and so consistently in direct contradiction to these cultural wisdoms and mythologies? Why ALWAYS ward off criticism? Why NEVER admit error? Why constantly discourage and disallow investigation and others to look inside your operations, conversations, policies? Why spend so much time and attention and resources at the sole function of pre-emptively derogating the press?

I really think it is an acutely defensive posture which sits on a feeling or belief that one is under serious attack (or potential attack) from forces which would destroy him/her/it. It definitely isn't sitting on top of much confidence about others or about one's abilities to be equal or maintain equality with others. That grade five teacher's mental state contained some serious element of being in opposition with her class and some emotional fear that the students were a real or serious threat.

Challenge and criticism are going to look like poison-tipped arrows coming in at one, if one is inclined emotionally to perceive the world and one's place in it this way. Any potential "weakness" or "vulnerability" from challenges and criticisms are likely to be managed with a seriousness befitting the perceived dangers.

I recently read (can't recall where, but posted it here somewhere) a compelling clue to this stuff. The writer noted the connection between dicatorial governance/control with the need to maintain "face". I think that's a very bright observation. [..]

One could go on for a long time looking at the various facets of this. I think it is very interesting. And we'd be rather dull not to see how it applies to this administration, to some extent to America in a more general way, and certainly to some clear insight as to why fox and tico, to name two, behave here as they do.

A thoughtful post, which leaves just one question, one that is raised by Tico's last post.

Here we have someone, and he surely represents many among those you describe, who doesn't so much, apparently, have a problem with admitting fault - but with even recognizing fault.

I mean, Tico certainly appears to mean what he says honestly. Let us assume that he is not bluffing when he says that he honestly has never found any mistake in any of his posts here so far that he would be able to confirm and correct.

The chances of even the greatest genius among us never having made any mistake are, of course, zero. So there is by definition some delusion at work here. And as Finn's post underlines, there is no deceptive unwillingness to admit fault at work when you don't think you made any in the first place.

So are there two separate pathologies at play here? Your grade five teacher seemed to be aware of the mistakes he made, but just not be able to bear any criticism of them. Is that different from the conceit of someone who doesnt think he ever made a mistake in the first place?

Not being able to recognize any fault and not being able to admit any are of course not clearly delineated from each other - I can see how they're related beasts. An honest person, for example, who would literally even not be able to lie about not having made any mistakes, but who is also viscerally unable to admit any, by definition has to mentally blank out the awareness of anything he did or said wrong to get out of that dilemma. But they do seem to be two separate things.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 11:40 am
blatham wrote:
I'm thinking slightly greater than about 50% right but memory can play tricks.


I'd give about the same % to you, Bernie.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 11:40 am
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:
Again you have perhaps skimmed my post too fast, and missed the point. Your spin in question was to pretend that Kean was just a NJ state senator in order to belittle his importance - conveniently ignoring the fact that he is also a particularly high-profile Republican candidate for the national Senate.

Huh? Which post are talking about that you think I skimmed too fast? You were referring to your "use of the word 'your'," which I believed meant you were referring to your post where you referred to Kean as "your own candidate," referring to me.

There is no spin here. The point was, and remains, that he is just a NJ state senator who is running for US Senator. He is not "my" candidate, and you were incorrect to refer to him as such.

The post I was referring to was, of course, the one I just quoted again - right there, in the bit you have now quoted again in turn.

Your spin was, when confronted with Kean demanding Rumsfeld's resignation, to pretend that Kean is a virtual nobody - what's the import of what a NJ state senator says? Conveniently ignoring the fact that Kean is not just another NJ state senator, but also the arguably single most high-profile Republican national Senate candidate to challenge a Democratic incumbent - who therefore has had Cheney, Bush I and a slay of other national Republicans campaigning for him.

That was where you were spinning, in order to belittle the significance of Kean's statement. I called you on that, and whether with that specific purpose in mind or not, you immediately distracted the conversation into one about my use of the word "your" in my post.


No spin. I told you what I thought about Kean. I attach about as much significance to Kean's comments as I do to yours. So, congratulations ... what you say is as important to me as what a State Senator from NJ says. You are the one who has decided that what he says has monumental significance. I've not done so, and I still don't do so.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:
Because even should a liberal strive to choose a more substantive style, plenty of you on the other side would prefer to ignore it, in order to keep on pretending that, you know, all those liberals are bitter, mad and made for losing.


I see. So it is your belief that the leftists on this site continue to post rancorous and nasty posts aimed at conservative posters, merely because if they were to do otherwise, the conservative posters would just ignore their newly-found civility? Interesting.

Err, no: as I specifically noted in my post, I was talking about myself, my own individual me - not about "the leftists on this site".


Well then, perhaps for clarity sake, you might have said "I" as opposed to "a liberal." Because when you said "even should a liberal strive," it certainly sounds as if you are referring to more than just yourself. But you have now clarified you are referring only to yourself, so it's all good.

Quote:
Me, I've long made a stretch of an effort to avoid and forego the partisan sniping and ridicule. To insist, both in practicing it myself and in calling others on their posts, on a better discourse than that. I did that to the point where I suspiciously seemed to become the A2K conservatives' favourite liberal - I almost got worried when Jer, O'Bill, Timberlandko, Lash and Georgeob1 all piled on with praise within just two pages there - with just one liberal chiming in. ;-)


Don't get me wrong ... I'm not accusing you of coming on extremely strong with "partisan sniping" and "in your face" posts. But you certainly do have your moments. But, relatively speaking, you are certainly benign.

And I too have encouraged more civil discourse in the postings on this site. I suspect you will not acknowledge this so much, because you have created this mental image of me, and in that regard, Tico does not strive for civil discourse, just partisan sniping and rancor.

Quote:
But being confronted with your type for long years now, I've just stopped seeing the point anymore over the course of time. And have become more willing to go for the fun and games that Blatham has pioneered in such floridly articulate fashion, instead.


Good for you. And the same applies to me, having long been confronted with "your type" as well ("your," in this case, including more than just you). I do secretly admire the calm demeanor of, say, a Coastal Rat, who is loath to come across too strongly, opting instead for a more diplomatic approach in response to a coarse posting from someone with an opposite viewpoint. And I certainly could do a better job of maintaining that approach, but I freely acknowledge that I tend to have a more direct and blunt approach in my posting style.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Have you criticized Setanta as well? Where, where where?

Tartarin appears to be a poster who last posted in December, 2003, about 10 months before my first post at A2K. Was that the last time you criticized all these leftists for being snide to "the other side"?

Err, no... it was just one of the longest-running and fiercest exchanges, which is why it came to mind.

Yes, I've had words with Setanta too (but then who hasnt).


Good point.

Quote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I assure you, nimh, and you can check this out if you have fabricated a memory that indicates otherwise: I have never, not once, uttered a nasty barb toward a leftist poster on this site that was not delivered in response to a similar barb being aimed at me.

Heh. The complete absence of the capability of critical self-reflection was already abundantly clear without you expliciting it like this - though I see you even one-upped yourself in your following post:


Hold on ... are you inferring that I'm incorrect? Cause if you are, I take issue with that. I am sweet as can be until you get on my bad side, then I react accordingly. In that respect, I tend to be kinda the opposite of Setanta, who will jump in with nastiness without provocation, just because he's trying to argue an opposite POV. (In fact, that was my first exposure to Setanta -- probably most people's first exposure to Setanta -- where he posted a nasty response when I'd not said anything to warrant such an attack from him. The particularly notable thing about that was he had previously been pointed out by another poster, early on in my A2K experience, as someone who was civil in his posting style. Laughing ) But no, if I'm pushed, I certainly do tend to push back. It's one of my many failings.

There are a few posters who have reacted negatively to me here in the first instance, based solely on my posting style I think, even though I had not previously been negative toward them individually. You and dyslexia are two that come to mind. Snood also, but I think we've put that behind us.

Quote:
It also provides pretty much the bottom line evidence of why it is really of little use to engage in serious discussion with you, other than for entertainment value.


Just ignore me then. I've never asked you to converse with me for any particular purpose. If you feel serious discussion with me is pointless because you don't think you are going to change my opinion (which is how I interpret your last remark), then I encourage you to run with that feeling, and do not engage in a serious discussion with me.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 01:32 am
Ticomaya- It is evident to all who read your posts carefully that you are a poster who is balanced, and, as you have pointed out, only react if you have been attacked first.

My reaction to posters like Nimh may be more severe than yours. I simply do not believe that any European, no matter how intelligent or how well read can really understand the US political system without having lived here for at least a few years.

It is my opinion that Nimh has swallowed the prevarications of the European leftists The best example is the European let wing's insistence that Millions of our poor are miserable because of our failed economic system. As those who actually live in the USA know( as opposed to those who have only read the precious little French Magazines) most of our "poor" live far better than the average European.

The fact that Nimh is not aware of such truths shows that he really does not know very much about the USA!!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 01:44 am
BernardR wrote:
As those who actually live in the USA know( as opposed to those who have only read the precious little French Magazines) most of our "poor" live far better than the average European.


As one of those Europeans (actually, I'm statiscally a bit below average), I'm glad to hear such.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 01:54 am
I assure you, Walter Hinteler, I do not make such things up. I will replicate an important piece of evidence for you. Please be aware that the charts referred to in the evidence do not come up in my replication but you can reference it for yourself if you are interested.

I do believe that this documentation shows just how well the "poor" in the USA do live-


Understanding Poverty in America
by Robert E. Rector and Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D.
Backgrounder #1713


January 5, 2004 | Executive Summary | |


Poverty is an important and emotional issue. Last year, the Census Bureau released its annual report on poverty in the United States declaring that there were nearly 35 million poor persons living in this country in 2002, a small increase from the preceding year. To understand poverty in America, it is important to look behind these numbers--to look at the actual living conditions of the individuals the government deems to be poor.

For most Americans, the word "poverty" suggests destitution: an inability to provide a family with nutritious food, clothing, and reasonable shelter. But only a small number of the 35 million persons classified as "poor" by the Census Bureau fit that description. While real material hardship certainly does occur, it is limited in scope and severity. Most of America's "poor" live in material conditions that would be judged as comfortable or well-off just a few generations ago. Today, the expenditures per person of the lowest-income one-fifth (or quintile) of households equal those of the median American household in the early 1970s, after adjusting for inflation.1

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.
As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier that the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.

While the poor are generally well-nourished, some poor families do experience hunger, meaning a temporary discomfort due to food shortages. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), 13 percent of poor families and 2.6 percent of poor children experience hunger at some point during the year. In most cases, their hunger is short-term. Eighty-nine percent of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat, while only 2 percent say they "often" do not have enough to eat.

Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians.

Of course, the living conditions of the average poor American should not be taken as representing all the poor. There is actually a wide range in living conditions among the poor. For example, over a quarter of poor households have cell phones and telephone answering machines, but, at the other extreme, approximately one-tenth have no phone at all. While the majority of poor households do not experience significant material problems, roughly a third do experience at least one problem such as overcrowding, temporary hunger, or difficulty getting medical care.

The best news is that remaining poverty can readily be reduced further, particularly among children. There are two main reasons that American children are poor: Their parents don't work much, and fathers are absent from the home.

In good economic times or bad, the typical poor family with children is supported by only 800 hours of work during a year: That amounts to 16 hours of work per week. If work in each family were raised to 2,000 hours per year--the equivalent of one adult working 40 hours per week throughout the year--nearly 75 percent of poor children would be lifted out of official poverty.

Father absence is another major cause of child poverty. Nearly two-thirds of poor children reside in single-parent homes; each year, an additional 1.3 million children are born out of wedlock. If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, almost three-quarters would immediately be lifted out of poverty.

While work and marriage are steady ladders out of poverty, the welfare system perversely remains hostile to both. Major programs such as food stamps, public housing, and Medicaid continue to reward idleness and penalize marriage. If welfare could be turned around to encourage work and marriage, remaining poverty would drop quickly.

What Is Poverty?
For most Americans, the word "poverty" suggests destitution: an inability to provide a family with nutritious food, clothing, and reasonable shelter. For example, the "Poverty Pulse" poll taken by the Catholic Campaign for Human Development in 2002 asked the general public the question: "How would you describe being poor in the U.S.?" The overwhelming majority of responses focused on homelessness, hunger or not being able to eat properly, and not being able to meet basic needs.2

But if poverty means lacking nutritious food, adequate warm housing, and clothing for a family, relatively few of the 35 million people identified as being "in poverty" by the Census Bureau could be characterized as poor.3 While material hardship does exist in the United States, it is quite restricted in scope and severity. The average "poor" person, as defined by the government, has a living standard far higher than the public imagines.

Ownership of Property and Amenities Among the Poor
Table 1 shows the ownership of property and consumer durables among poor households. The data are taken from the American Housing Survey for 2001, conducted by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development and the Census Bureau, and the Residential Energy Consumption Survey conducted by the U.S. Department of Energy.4



As the table shows, some 46 percent of poor households own their own home. The typical home owned by the poor is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths. It has a garage or carport and a porch or patio and is located on a half-acre lot. The house was constructed in 1967 and is in good repair. The median value of homes owned by poor households was $86,600 in 2001 or 70 percent of the median value of all homes owned in the United States.5

Some 73 percent of poor households own a car or truck; nearly a third own two or more cars or trucks. Over three-quarters have air conditioning; by contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the general U.S. population had air conditioning. Nearly three-quarters of poor households own microwaves; a third have automatic dishwashers.

Poor households are well-equipped with modern entertainment technology. It should come as no surprise that nearly all (97 percent) poor households have color TVs, but more than half actually own two or more color televisions. One-quarter own large-screen televisions, 78 percent have a VCR or DVD player, and almost two-thirds have cable or satellite TV reception. Some 58 percent own a stereo. More than a third have telephone answering machines, while a quarter have personal computers. While these numbers do not suggest lives of luxury, they are notably different from conventional images of poverty.

Housing Conditions
A similar disparity between popular conceptions and reality applies to the housing conditions of the poor. Most poor Americans live in houses or apartments that are relatively spacious and in good repair. As Chart 1 shows, 54 percent of poor households live in single-family homes, either unattached single dwellings or attached units such as townhouses. Another 36.4 percent live in apartments, and 9.6 percent live in mobile homes.6



Housing Space
Both the overall U.S. population and the poor in America live, in general, in very spacious housing. As Table 2 shows, 70 percent of all U.S. households have two or more rooms per tenant. Among the poor, this figure is 68 percent.



Crowding is quite rare; only 2.5 percent of all households and 5.7 percent of poor households are crowded with more than one person per room.7 By contrast, social reformer Jacob Riis, writing on tenement living conditions around 1890 in New York City, described crowded families living with four or five persons per room and some 20 square feet of living space per person.8

Housing space can also be measured by the number of square feet per person. The Residential Energy Consumption survey conducted by the U.S. Department of Energy shows that Americans have an average of 721 square feet of living space per person. Poor Americans have 439 square feet.9 Reasonably comparable international square-footage data are provided by the Housing Indicator Program of the United Nations Centre for Human Settlements, which surveyed housing conditions in major cities in 54 different nations. This survey showed the United States to have by far the most spacious housing units, with 50 percent to 100 percent more square footage per capita than city dwellers in other industrialized nations.10

America's poor compare favorably with the general population of other nations in square footage of living space. The average poor American has more square footage of living space than does the average person living in London, Paris, Vienna, and Munich. Poor Americans have nearly three times the living space of average urban citizens in middle-income countries such as Mexico and Turkey. Poor American households have seven times more housing space per person than the general urban population of very-low-income countries such as India and China. (See Appendix Table A for more detailed information.)

Some critics have argued that the comparisons in Table 3 are misleading.11 These critics claim that U.S. housing in general cannot be compared to housing in specific European cities such as Paris or London because housing in these cities is unusually small and does not represent the European housing stock overall. To assess the validity of this argument, Table 4 presents national housing data for 15 West European countries. These data represent the entire national housing stock in each of the 15 countries. In general, the national data on housing size are similar to the data on specific European cities presented in Table 3 and Appendix Table A.





As Table 4 shows, U.S. housing (with an average size of 1,875 square feet per unit) is nearly twice as large as European housing (with an average size of 976 square feet per unit.) After adjusting for the number of persons in each dwelling unit, Americans have an average of 721 square feet per person, compared to 396 square feet for the average European.

The housing of poor Americans (with an average of 1,228 square feet per unit) is smaller than that of the average American but larger than that of the average European (who has 976 square feet per unit). Overall, poor Americans have an average of 439 square feet of living space per person, which is as much as or more than the average citizen in most West European countries. (This comparison is to the average European, not poor Europeans.)

Housing Quality
Of course, it might be possible that the housing of poor American households could be spacious but still dilapidated or unsafe. However, data from the American Housing Survey indicate that such is not the case. For example, the survey provides a tally of households with "severe physical problems." Only a tiny portion of poor households and an even smaller portion of total households fall into that category.

The most common "severe problem," according to the American Housing Survey, is a shared bathroom, which occurs when occupants lack a bathroom and must share bathroom facilities with individuals in a neighboring unit. This condition affects about 1 percent of all U.S. households and 2 percent of all poor households. About one-half of 1 percent (0.5 percent) of all households and 2 percent of poor households have other "severe physical problems." The most common are repeated heating breakdowns and upkeep problems.

The American Housing Survey also provides a count of households affected by "moderate physical problems." A wider range of households falls into this category--9 percent of the poor and nearly 5 percent of total households. However, the problems affecting these units are clearly modest. While living in such units might be disagreeable by modern middle-class standards, they are a far cry from Dickensian squalor. The most common problems are upkeep, lack of a full kitchen, and use of unvented oil, kerosene or gas heaters as the primary heat source. (The last condition occurs almost exclusively in the South.)

Hunger and Malnutrition in America
There are frequent charges of widespread hunger and malnutrition in the United States.12 To understand these assertions, it is important, first of all, to distinguish between hunger and the more severe problem of malnutrition. Malnutrition (also called undernutrition) is a condition of reduced health due to a chronic shortage of calories and nutriments. There is little or no evidence of poverty-induced malnutrition in the United States.

Hunger is a far less severe condition: a temporary but real discomfort caused by an empty stomach. The government defines hunger as "the uneasy or painful sensation caused by lack of food."13 While hunger due to a lack of financial re-sources does occur in the United States, it is limited in scope and duration. According to the USDA, on a typical day, fewer than one American in 200 will experience hunger due to a lack of money to buy food.14 The hunger rate rises somewhat when examined over a longer time period; according to the USDA, some 6.9 million Americans, or 2.4 percent of the population, were hungry at least once during 2002.15 Nearly all hunger in the United States is short-term and episodic rather than continuous.16

Some 92 percent of those who experienced hunger in 2002 were adults, and only 8 percent were children. Overall, some 567,000 children, or 0.8 percent of all children, were hungry at some point in 2002. In a typical month, roughly one child in 400 skipped one or more meals because the family lacked funds to buy food.

Not only is hunger relatively rare among U.S. children, but it has declined sharply since the mid-1990s. As Chart 2 shows, the number of hungry children was cut by a third between 1995 and 2002. According to the USDA, in 1995, there were 887,000 hungry children: by 2002, the number had fallen to 567,000.17



Overall, some 97 percent of the U.S. population lived in families that reported they had "enough food to eat" during the entire year, although not always the kinds of foods they would have preferred. Around 2.5 percent stated their families "sometimes" did not have "enough to eat" due to money shortages, and one-half of 1 percent (0.5 percent) said they "often" did not have enough to eat due to a lack of funds. (See Chart 3.)



Hunger and Poverty
Among the poor, the hunger rate was obviously higher: During 2002, 12.8 percent of the poor lived in households in which at least one member experienced hunger at some point.18 Among poor children, 2.4 percent experienced hunger at some point in the year.19 Overall, most poor households were not hungry and did not experience food shortages during the year.

When asked, some 89 percent of poor households reported they had "enough food to eat" during the entire year, although not always the kinds of food they would prefer. Around 9 percent stated they "sometimes" did not have enough to eat because of a lack of money to buy food. Another 2 percent of the poor stated that they "often" did not have enough to eat due to a lack of funds.20 (See Chart 3.)


Poverty and Malnutrition
It is widely believed that a lack of financial resources forces poor people to eat low-quality diets that are deficient in nutriments and high in fat. However, survey data show that nutriment density (amount of vitamins, minerals, and protein per kilocalorie of food) does not vary by income class.21 Nor do the poor consume higher-fat diets than do the middle class; the percentage of persons with high fat intake (as a share of total calories) is virtually the same for low-income and upper-middle-income persons.22 Overconsumption of calories in general, however, is a major problem among the poor, as it is within the general U.S. population.

Examination of the average nutriment consumption of Americans reveals that age and gender play a far greater role than income class in determining nutritional intake. For example, the nutriment intakes of adult women in the upper middle class (with incomes above 350 percent of the poverty level) more closely resemble the intakes of poor women than they do those of upper-middle-class men, children, or teens.23 The average nutriment consumption of upper-middle-income preschoolers, as a group, is virtually identical with that of poor preschoolers but not with the consumption of adults or older children in the upper middle class.

This same pattern holds for adult males, teens, and most other age and gender groups. In general, children aged 0-11 years have the highest average level of nutriment intakes relative to the recommended daily allowance (RDA), followed by adult and teen males. Adult and teen females have the lowest level of intakes. This pattern holds for all income classes.

Nutrition and Poor Children
Government surveys provide little evidence of widespread undernutrition among poor children; in fact, they show that the average nutriment consumption among the poor closely resembles that of the upper middle class. For example, children in families with incomes below the poverty level actually consume more meat than do children in families with incomes at 350 percent of the poverty level or higher (roughly $65,000 for a family of four in today's dollars).

Table 5 shows the average intake of protein, vitamins, and minerals as a percentage of the recommended daily allowance among poor and middle-class children at various age levels.24 The intake of nutriments is very similar for poor and middle-class children and is generally well above the recommended daily level. For example, the consumption of protein (a relatively expensive nutriment) among poor children is, on average, between 150 percent and 267 percent of the RDA.



When shortfalls of specific vitamins and minerals appear (for example, among teenage girls), they tend to be very similar for the poor and the middle class. While poor teenage girls, on average, tend to underconsume vitamin E, vitamin B-6, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, iron, and zinc, a virtually identical underconsumption of these same nutriments appears among upper- middle-class girls.

Poor Children's Weight and Stature
On average, poor children are very well-nourished, and there is no evidence of widespread significant undernutrition. For example, two indicators of undernutrition among the young are "thinness" (low weight for height) and stuntedness (low height for age). These problems are rare to nonexistent among poor American children.

The generally good health of poor American children can be illustrated by international comparisons. Table 6 provides data on children's size based on the World Health Organization (WHO) Global Data Base on Child Growth: Children are judged to be short or "stunted" if their height falls below the 2.3 percentile level of standard height-to-age tables.25 Table 6 shows the percentage of children under age five in developing nations who are judged to be "stunted" by this standard.



In developing nations as a whole, some 43 percent of children are stunted. In Africa, more than a third of young children are affected; in Asia, near-ly half.26 By contrast, in the United States, some 2.6 percent of young children in poor households are stunted by a comparable standard--a rate only slightly above the expected standard for healthy, well-nourished children.27 While concern for the well-being of poor American children is always prudent, the data overall underscore how large and well-nourished poor American children are by global standards.

Throughout this century, improvements in nutrition and health have led to increases in the rate of growth and ultimate height and weight of American children. Poor children have clearly benefited from this trend. Poor boys today at ages 18 and 19 are actually taller and heavier than boys of similar age in the general U.S. population in the late 1950s. Poor boys living today are one inch taller and some 10 pounds heavier than GIs of similar age during World War II, and nearly two inches taller and 20 pounds heavier than American doughboys back in World War I.28

Poverty and Obesity
The principal nutrition-related health problem among the poor, as with the general U.S. population, stems from the overconsumption, not underconsumption, of food. While overweight and obesity are prevalent problems throughout the U.S. population, they are found most frequently among poor adults. Poor adult men are slightly less likely than non-poor men to be overweight (30.4 percent compared to 31.9 percent); but, as Chart 4 shows, poor adult women are significantly more likely to be overweight than are non-poor women (47.3 percent compared to 32 percent).29

Living Conditions and Hardships Among the Poor
Overall, the living standards of most poor Americans are far higher than is generally appreciated. The overwhelming majority of poor families are well-housed, have adequate food, and enjoy a wide range of modern amenities, including air conditioning and cable television. Some 70 percent of poor households report that during the course of the past year they were able to meet "all essential expenses," including mortgage, rent, utility bills, and important medical care.30 (See Chart 5.)



However, two caveats should be applied to this generally optimistic picture. First, many poor families have difficulty paying their regular bills and must scramble to make ends meet. For example, around one-quarter of poor families are late in paying the rent or utility bills at some point during the year.

Second, the living conditions of the average poor household should not be taken to represent all poor households. There is a wide range of living conditions among the poor; while more than a quarter of the poor have cell phones and answering machines, a tenth of the poor have no telephone at all. While most of America's poor live in accommodations with two or more rooms per person, roughly a tenth of the poor are crowded, with less than one room per person.

These points are illustrated in Table 7, which lists the financial and material hardships among poor households in 1998.31 During at least one month in the preceding year, some 20 percent of poor households reported they were unable to pay their fuel, gas, or electric bills promptly; around 4 percent had their utilities cut off at some point due to nonpayment. Another 13 percent of poor households failed, at some point in the year, to make their full monthly rent or mortgage payments, and 1 percent were evicted due to failure to pay rent. One in 10 poor families had their phones disconnected due to nonpayment at some time during the preceding year.



Overall, more than one-quarter of poor families experienced at least one financial difficulty during the year. Most had a late payment of rent or utility bills. Some 12 percent had phones or utilities cut off or were evicted.

Poor households also experienced the material problems listed on Table 7.32 Some 14 percent lacked medical insurance and had a family member who needed to go to a doctor or hospital but did not go; 11 percent experienced hunger in the household; and around 9 percent were overcrowded, with more than one person per room. Slightly less than 4 percent of poor households experienced upkeep problems with the physical conditions of their apartments or homes, having three or more of the physical problems listed in Table 7.



Overall Hardship
Altogether, around 58 percent of poor households experienced none of the financial or physical hardships listed in Table 7 These families were able to pay all their bills on time. They were able to obtain medical care if needed, were not hungry or crowded, and had few upkeep problems in the home. Another 20 percent of poor households experienced one financial or material problem during the year. Around 10 percent of poor households had two financial or material problems, while 12 percent had three or more.

The most common problem facing poor households was late payment of rent or utilities. While having difficulty paying monthly bills is stressful, in most cases late payment did not result in material hardship or deprivation. If late payment problems are excluded from the count, we find that two-thirds of poor households had none of the remaining problems listed in Table 7. Some 22 percent had one problem, and 12 percent had two or more problems.

While it is appropriate to be concerned about the difficulties faced by some poor families, it is important to keep these problems in perspective. Many poor families have intermittent difficulty paying rent or utility bills but remain very well-housed by historic or international standards. Even poor families who are overcrowded and hungry, by U.S. standards, are still likely to have living conditions that are far above the world average.

Reducing Child Poverty
The generally high living standards of poor Americans are good news. Even better is the fact that our nation can readily reduce remaining poverty, especially among children. To accomplish this, we must focus on the main causes of child poverty: low levels of parental work and high levels of single parenthood.

In good economic times or bad, the typical poor family with children is supported by only 800 hours of work during a year: That amounts to 16 hours of work per week. If work in each family were raised to 2,000 hours per year--the equivalent of one adult working 40 hours per week through the year--nearly 75 percent of poor children would be lifted out of official poverty.33

The decline in marriage is the second major cause of child poverty. Nearly two-thirds of poor children reside in single-parent homes; each year, an additional 1.3 million children are born out of wedlock. Increasing marriage would substantially reduce child poverty: If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, almost three-quarters would immediately be lifted out of poverty.34

In recent years, the United States has established a reasonable record in reducing child poverty. Successful anti-poverty policies were partially implemented in the welfare reform legislation of 1996, which replaced the old Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program with a new program called Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF).

A key element of this reform was a requirement that some welfare mothers either prepare for work or get jobs as a condition of receiving aid. As this requirement went into effect, welfare rolls plummeted and employment of single mothers increased in an unprecedented manner. As employment of single mothers rose, child poverty dropped rapidly. For example, in the quarter-century before welfare reform, there was no net change in the poverty rate of children in single-mother families; after reform was enacted, the poverty rate dropped in an unprecedented fashion, falling from 53.1 percent in 1995 to 39.8 percent in 2001.35

In general, however, welfare reform has been limited in both scope and intensity. Even in the TANF program, over half the adult beneficiaries are idle on the rolls and are not engaged in activities leading to self-sufficiency. Work requirements are virtually nonexistent in related programs such as food stamps and public housing. Even worse, despite the fact that marriage has enormous financial and psychological benefits for parents and children, welfare reform has done little or nothing to strengthen marriage in low-income communities. Overall, the welfare system continues to encourage idle dependence rather than work and to reward single parenthood while penalizing marriage.

If child poverty is to be substantially reduced, welfare must be transformed. Able-bodied parents must be required to work or prepare for work, and the welfare system should encourage rather than penalize marriage.

Conclusion
The living conditions of persons defined as poor by the government bear little resemblance to notions of "poverty" held by the general public. If poverty is defined as lacking adequate nutritious food for one's family, a reasonably warm and dry apartment to live in, or a car with which to get to work when one is needed, then there are relatively few poor persons remaining in the United States. Real material hardship does occur, but it is limited in scope and severity.

The typical American defined as "poor" by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians.

But the living conditions of the average poor person should not be taken to mean that all poor Americans live without hardship. There is a wide range of living conditions among the poor. Roughly a third of poor households do face material hardships such as overcrowding, intermittent food shortages, or difficulty obtaining medical care. However, even these households would be judged to have high living standards in comparison to most other people in the world.

Perhaps the best news is that the United States can readily reduce its remaining poverty, especially among children. The main causes of child poverty in the United States are low levels of parental work and high numbers of single-parent families. By increasing work and marriage, our nation can virtually eliminate remaining child poverty.

Robert E. Rector is Senior Research Fellow in Domestic Policy Studies and Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D., is Harry and Jeanette Weinberg Fellow in Statistical Welfare Research in the Center for Data Analysis at The Heritage Foundation.




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1. Comparison of the average expenditure per person of the lowest quintile in 2001 with the middle quintile in 1973. Sources: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Consumer Expenditure Survey: Integrated Diary and Interview Survey Data, 1972-73, Bulletin No. 1992, released in 1979, and U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Consumer Expenditures in 2001, Report No. 966, April 2003. Figures adjusted for inflation by the personal consumption expenditure index.

2. See Campaign for Human Development, Poverty Pulse, January 2002, at www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povpulse.htm. Interestingly, only about 1 percent of those surveyed regarded poverty in the terms the government does: as having an income below a specified level.

3. The Census Bureau defines an individual as poor if his or her family income falls below certain specified income thresholds. These thresholds vary by family size. In 2002, a family of four was deemed poor if its annual income fell below $18,556; a family of three was deemed poor if annual income was below $14,702. There are a number of problems with the Census Bureau's poverty figures: Census undercounts income, ignores assets accumulated in prior years, and disregards non-cash welfare such as food stamps and public housing in its official count of income. However, the most important problem with Census figures is that, even if a family's income falls below the official poverty thresholds, the family's actual living conditions are likely to be far higher than the image most Americans have in mind when they hear the word "poverty."

4. U.S. Department of Commerce and U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, American Housing Survey for the United States: 2001; U.S Department of Energy, Housing Characteristics, 2001, Appliances Tables, at www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/consumption.

5. U.S Department of Commerce and U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, American Housing Survey for the United States: 2001, Tables 3-1, 3-14.

6. Ibid., p. 42.

7. Ibid., p. 46.

8. Jacob Riis, How the Other Half Lives (New York: Dover Press, 1971), pp. 6, 41, 59.

9. U.S. Department of Energy, Housing Characteristics 1993, 1995, pp. 46, 47. The figures in the text refer to total living space, including both heated and non-heated living space.

10. United Nations Centre for Human Settlements and the World Bank, The Housing Indicators Program, Vol. II: Indicator Tables (New York: United Nations, 1993), Table 5.

11. See Katha Pollitt, "Poverty: Fudging the Numbers," The Nation, November 2, 1998. Pollitt argues that it is misleading to compare the living space of poor Americans nationwide to that of average citizens in major cities in other nations, since European cities, in particular, have small housing units that are not representative of their entire nations. However, the author of the United Nations Housing Indicators report asserts that, in most cases, the average housing size in major cities can be taken as roughly representative of the nation as a whole. A comparison of the data in Table 4 and Appendix Table A would appear to confirm this.

12. See, for example, A Survey of Childhood Hunger in the United States (Washington, D.C.: Food Research Action Center, Community Childhood Hunger Identification Project, 1995) and "1997 National Research Study," in Hunger 1997: The Faces and Facts (Chicago, Ill.: America's Second Harvest, 1997).

13. U.S. Department of Agriculture, Household Food Security in the United States in 1995: Summary Report for the Food Security Measurement Project, 1997, p. 5.

14. In all cases, the figures concerning hunger in this paper refer solely to hunger caused by a lack of funds to buy food and do not include hunger that is attributed to any other cause.

15. Mark Nord, Margaret Andrews, and Steven Carlson, Household Food Security in the United States, 2002, U.S. Department of Agriculture, October 2003, p. 7. The numbers in the text were taken from Table 1 of the USDA publication. Many individuals reside in households where at least one family member but not all family members experienced hunger. This is particularly true among families with children where the adults are far more likely than the children to experience hunger. According to Table 1of Household Food Security in the United States, 2002, 9.3 million persons lived in a household where at least one household member experienced hunger; however, not all of these persons experienced hunger themselves. The number of persons who experienced hunger individually was lower: 6.8 million people, including 6.3 million adults and 567,000 children.

16. The numbers of persons identified as hungry throughout this paper correspond to individuals that the USDA identifies as "food insecure with hunger." The USDA also has a second, broader category: "food insecure without hunger." As the term implies, these individuals are not hungry. They may, however, at certain times in the year be forced to eat cheaper foods or a narrower range of foods than those to which they are ordinarily accustomed. According to the USDA, 7.6 percent of all households were "food insecure without hunger" in 2002. Food advocacy groups often inaccurately include the households that are "food insecure without hunger" in the count of households that are deemed hungry.

17. Nord, Andrews, and Carlson, Food Security in the United States, 2002, p. 7. Additional data provided by USDA.

18. Nord, Andrews, and Carlson, Food Security in the United States, 2002, p. 16.

19. Ibid., p. 17.

20. Calculated from USDA food security survey for 2001.

21. C. T. Windham et al., "Nutrient Density of Diets in the USDA Nationwide Food Consumption Survey, 1977-1978: Impact of Socioeconomic Status on Dietary Density," Journal of the American Dietetic Association, January 1983.

22. Interagency Board for Nutrition Monitoring and Related Research, Third Report on Nutrition Monitoring in the United States (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1995), p. VA 167.

23. U.S. Department of Agriculture, Food and Nutrient Intakes by Individuals in the United States, 1 Day, 1989-91, Nationwide Food Survey Report No. 91-2, 1995.

24. Ibid., Tables 10-1, 10-4. Table 4 in the present paper also provides the "mean adequacy ratio" for various groups. The mean adequacy ratio represents average intake of all the nutriments listed as a percent of RDA. However, in computing mean adequacy, intake values exceeding 100 percent of RDA are counted at 100, since the body cannot use an excess consumption of one nutriment to fill a shortfall of another nutriment.

25. The World Health Organization uses standard height-for-age tables developed by the National Center for Health Statistics at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of the U.S. Department and Health and Human Services.

26. M. de Onis and J. P. Habicht, "Anthropometric Reference Data for International Use: Recommendations from a World Health Organization Expert Committee," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1996, pp. 650-658.

27. Calculation by the authors using National Health and Nutrition Evaluation Survey III data and WHO standard tables for shortness for age. Shortness for age is the result of genetic variation as well as nutritional factors. The World Health Organization standards assume that even in a very well-nourished population, 2.3 percent of children will have heights below the "stunted" cut-off levels due to normal genetic factors. Problems are apparent if the number of short children in a population rises appreciably above that 2.3 percent.

28. Bernard D. Karpinos, "Current Height and Weight of Youths of Military Age," Human Biology, 1961, pp. 336-364. Recent data on young males in poverty provided by the National Center for Health Statistics of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, based on the second National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.

29. Interagency Board for Nutrition Monitoring and Related Research, Third Report on Nutrition Monitoring, Vol. 2, p. VA 219.

30. Calculated from U.S. Bureau of the Census, Survey of Income and Program Participation, Extended Measures of Well-being Module, 1998.

31. Ibid.

32. The Survey of Income and Program Participation, Extended Measures of Well-being Module also contains a question about whether members of the household needed to see a dentist but did not go. Because the question does not specify whether or not the failure to visit the dentist was due to an inability to pay, we did not include the question in this report.

33. Robert E. Rector and Rea S. Hederman, Jr., "The Role of Parental Work in Child Poverty," Heritage Foundation Center for Data Analysis Report No. CDA03-01, January 27, 2003.

34. Robert E. Rector, Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D., Patrick F. Fagan, and Lauren R. Noyes, "Increasing Marriage Would Dramatically Reduce Child Poverty," Heritage Foundation Center for Data Analysis Report No. CDA03-06, May 20, 2003.

35. Robert Rector and Patrick F. Fagan, "The Continuing Good News About Welfare Reform," Heritage Foundation Backgrounder No. 1620, February 6, 2003.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 02:09 am
BernardR wrote:
I assure you, Walter Hinteler, I do not make such things up.


And I assure you that I'm glad that the "poor" in the USA live better than I do!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 02:31 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
BernardR wrote:
I assure you, Walter Hinteler, I do not make such things up.


And I assure you that I'm glad that t


Snorkle.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 03:00 am
The rabbit wrote:

"And I assure you that I'm glad that t"

What in the hell does that mean?
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 03:02 am
Well, Mr; Walter Hinteler, some may disagree with the facts as laid down by the Heritage researchers, but it is quite difficult to argue with vetted statistics. I would invite anyone who feels that the information provided in the article is incorrect, to state their reasons. The reasons should be backed by appropriate statistics, of course!!!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 04:40 am
I don't know why you address me all the time about those.

As said: I'm really, honestly glad that even the poor are doing better in the USA than I am!!!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 07:03 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:
It also provides pretty much the bottom line evidence of why it is really of little use to engage in serious discussion with you, other than for entertainment value.

Just ignore me then. [..] If you feel serious discussion with me is pointless because you don't think you are going to change my opinion (which is how I interpret your last remark), then I encourage you to run with that feeling, and do not engage in a serious discussion with me.

You interpret wrongly.

It's not about wanting to change your mind. It's that someone who honestly - and I'm assuming honesty on your part here - doesnt think he ever made a mistake in any of his posts, apparently lacks the capacity of critical reflection. And there is little sense in an exchange of ideas and discussions of findings and interpretations with someone who lacks the capacity of critical reflection; he is bound to only ever find what he expects or wants to find.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Sep, 2006 07:08 am
nimh

You asked an interesting question. Give me a bit to think it through so well as I can.
0 Replies
 
 

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