1
   

Harping On Abu Ghraib and Gitmo is Highly Misguided

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:00 pm
Then again, there's always my own theory as to what to do with the terrorist a$$holes being kept at Gitmo...

http://www.hedweb.com/animimag/pigwild.jpg
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:06 pm
Using your "logic" gunga we can also say there has been no war since the big one WW II, all those petty little spats like Korea/Vietnam/Iraq are just field trips for the scouts. Any wus from those "spats" who think they have been to war are just pansyass faggots who don't know what it's like to die in a "real" war. Ergo anyone over in Iraq or Afghanistan today are not "real" soldiers, they're just having an extended holiday. Right gunga?
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:06 pm
Thank You, Gungasnake for your excellent pictures. I find it amazing that Parados claims that "gulag" does not mean torture. Anyone who knows anything about "gulags" knows that torture is the driving force of the gulags. Here is a description "When the West learned about the gulag"

QUOTE

" The Soviet Labor Camps were surrounded with walls and barbed wire. and hidden by a ploicy of secrecy and enforced silence. With very few notable exceptions the Soviet media avoided the topic of the GULAG system. Prisoners, entirely cut off from their homes and families WERE DOOMED TO DIE IN OBSCURITY AND ISOLATION FROM EXHAUSTION, HUNGER AND COLD"

I guess, Gungasnake, that Parados doesn't equate exhaustion,hunger and cold with torture!!
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:26 pm
Listening to NPR the other day, someone was talking about the gulag comment by Amnesty and said gulag actually referred to more of a prison labor camp. The prisoners were forced to work AND were tortured and killed.

According to the author, historically the gulag term includes forced work. Gitmo, then ould not be a gulag, but the rest fits.

Surely you aren't claiming there is no torture taking place at Gitmo, chic.

Check this out: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=53937&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:27 pm
Skinney- If you were a lawyer and went into court with that garbage, they would laugh you out of court. Now,be a good girl and get some Evidence. You do know what evidence is dont you? Evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't think you know very much about law, Skinney.

If you remember the impeachment of Bill Scumbag Clinton, you may recall that some of the House members were discussing the possibilty of "perjury" charges. Despite the fact that Clinton lied repeatedly in his Paula Jones deposition, he was not charged with perjury because the lawyers did not properly define the questions they were asking him.

You get some real evidence, skinney, and then come back. Real evidence. Not hearsay or innuendo.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:42 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
thethinkfactory wrote:
Debra:

I wanted to thank you for the time spent finding the appropriate precedence in this case. Do you think it is the case that we are simply waiting for a lawsuit on behalf of a gitmo detainee for this to be cleared up on behalf of the administration that refuses to give the detainee's a legal status?

How do you, in your legal opinion think this will be resolved?

TTF


This will be resolved when active hostilities cease and the detainees are repatriated.



The detainees have filed lawsuits.

RASUL et al. v. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, et al.

Quote:
Pursuant to Congress' joint resolution authorizing the use of necessary and appropriate force against nations, organizations, or persons that planned, authorized, committed, or aided in the September 11, 2001, al Qaeda terrorist attacks, the President sent Armed Forces into Afghanistan to wage a military campaign against al Qaeda and the Taliban regime that had supported it. Petitioners, 2 Australians and 12 Kuwaitis captured abroad during the hostilities, are being held in military custody at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, Naval Base, which the United States occupies under a lease and treaty recognizing Cuba's ultimate sovereignty, but giving this country complete jurisdiction and control for so long as it does not abandon the leased areas. Petitioners filed suits under federal law challenging the legality of their detention, alleging that they had never been combatants against the United States or engaged in terrorist acts, and that they have never been charged with wrongdoing, permitted to consult counsel, or provided access to courts or other tribunals. The District Court construed the suits as habeas petitions and dismissed them for want of jurisdiction, holding that, under Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U. S. 763, aliens detained outside United States sovereign territory may not invoke habeas relief. The Court of Appeals affirmed.

Held: United States courts have jurisdiction to consider challenges to the legality of the detention of foreign nationals captured abroad in connection with hostilities and incarcerated at Guantanamo Bay. Pp. 4-17.

(a) The District Court has jurisdiction to hear petitioners' habeas challenges under 28 U. S. C. §2241, which authorizes district courts, "within their respective jurisdictions," to entertain habeas applications by persons claiming to be held "in custody in violation of the ... laws ... of the United States," §§2241(a), (c)(3). Such jurisdiction extends to aliens held in a territory over which the United States exercises plenary and exclusive jurisdiction, but not "ultimate sovereignty." Pp. 4-16.

(1) The Court rejects respondents' primary submission that these cases are controlled by Eisentrager's holding that a District Court lacked authority to grant habeas relief to German citizens captured by U. S. forces in China, tried and convicted of war crimes by an American military commission headquartered in Nanking, and incarcerated in occupied Germany. Reversing a Court of Appeals judgment finding jurisdiction, the Eisentrager Court found six critical facts: The German prisoners were (a) enemy aliens who (b) had never been or resided in the United States, (c) were captured outside U. S. territory and there held in military custody, (d) were there tried and convicted by the military (e) for offenses committed there, and (f) were imprisoned there at all times. 339 U. S., at 777. Petitioners here differ from the Eisentrager detainees in important respects: They are not nationals of countries at war with the United States, and they deny that they have engaged in or plotted acts of aggression against this country; they have never been afforded access to any tribunal, much less charged with and convicted of wrongdoing; and for more than two years they have been imprisoned in territory over which the United States exercises exclusive jurisdiction and control. The Eisentrager Court also made clear that all six of the noted critical facts were relevant only to the question of the prisoners' constitutional entitlement to habeas review. Ibid. The Court's only statement on their statutory entitlement was a passing reference to its absence. Id., at 768. This cursory treatment is explained by the Court's then-recent decision in Ahrens v. Clark, 335 U. S. 188, in which it held that the District Court for the District of Columbia lacked jurisdiction to entertain the habeas claims of aliens detained at Ellis Island because the habeas statute's phrase "within their respective jurisdictions" required the petitioners' presence within the court's territorial jurisdiction, id., at 192. However, the Court later held, in Braden v. 30th Judicial Circuit Court of Ky., 410 U. S. 484, 494-495, that such presence is not "an invariable prerequisite" to the exercise of §2241 jurisdiction because habeas acts upon the person holding the prisoner, not the prisoner himself, so that the court acts "within [its] respective jurisdiction" if the custodian can be reached by service of process. Because Braden overruled the statutory predicate to Eisentrager's holding, Eisentrager does not preclude the exercise of §2241 jurisdiction over petitioners' claims. Pp. 6-11.

(2) Also rejected is respondents' contention that §2241 is limited by the principle that legislation is presumed not to have extraterritorial application unless Congress clearly manifests such an intent, EEOC v. Arabian American Oil Co., 499 U. S. 244, 248. That presumption has no application to the operation of the habeas statute with respect to persons detained within "the [United States'] territorial jurisdiction." Foley Bros., Inc. v. Filardo, 336 U. S. 281, 285. By the express terms of its agreements with Cuba, the United States exercises complete jurisdiction and control over the Guantanamo Base, and may continue to do so permanently if it chooses. Respondents concede that the habeas statute would create federal-court jurisdiction over the claims of an American citizen held at the base. Considering that §2241 draws no distinction between Americans and aliens held in federal custody, there is little reason to think that Congress intended the statute's geographical coverage to vary depending on the detainee's citizenship. Aliens held at the base, like American citizens, are entitled to invoke the federal courts' §2241 authority. Pp. 12-15.

(3) Petitioners contend that they are being held in federal custody in violation of United States laws, and the District Court's jurisdiction over petitioners' custodians is unquestioned, cf. Braden, 410 U. S., at 495. Section 2241 requires nothing more and therefore confers jurisdiction on the District Court. Pp. 15-16.

(b) The District Court also has jurisdiction to hear the Al Odah petitioners' complaint invoking 28 U. S. C. §1331, the federal question statute, and §1350, the Alien Tort Statute. The Court of Appeals, again relying on Eisentrager, held that the District Court correctly dismissed these claims for want of jurisdiction because the petitioners lacked the privilege of litigation in U. S. courts. Nothing in Eisentrager or any other of the Court's cases categorically excludes aliens detained in military custody outside the United States from that privilege. United States courts have traditionally been open to nonresident aliens. Cf. Disconto Gesellschaft v. Umbreit, 208 U. S. 570, 578. And indeed, §1350 explicitly confers the privilege of suing for an actionable "tort ... committed in violation of the law of nations or a treaty of the United States" on aliens alone. The fact that petitioners are being held in military custody is immaterial. Pp. 16-17.

(c) Whether and what further proceedings may become necessary after respondents respond to the merits of petitioners' claims are not here addressed. P. 17.

321 F. 3d 1134, reversed and remanded.

Stevens, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which O'Connor, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, JJ., joined.

Kennedy, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment.

Scalia, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which Rehnquist, C. J., and Thomas, J., joined.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:53 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
That's what tico claims......


What is "what tico claims." Please be specific in your response, c.i.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:01 pm
Ticomaya wrote:

What is "what tico claims." Please be specific in your response, c.i.


God Tico, you're even uglier than in your last avatar! Is, isss that possible? Smile
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:13 pm
Quote:
Terrorists Have No Geneva Rights
Don't blur the lines between Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

BY JOHN YOO
Saturday, May 29, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

In light of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, critics are arguing that abuses of Iraqi prisoners are being produced by a climate of disregard for the laws of war. Human-rights advocates, for example, claim that the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners is of a piece with President Bush's 2002 decision to deny al Qaeda and Taliban fighters the legal status of prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. Critics, no doubt, will soon demand that reforms include an extension of Geneva standards to interrogations at Guantanamo Bay.

The effort to blur the lines between Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib reflects a deep misunderstanding about the different legal regimes that apply to Iraq and the war against al Qaeda. It ignores the unique demands of the war on terrorism and the advantages that a facility such as Guantanamo can provide. It urges policy makers and the Supreme Court to make the mistake of curing what could prove to be an isolated problem by disarming the government of its principal weapon to stop future terrorist attacks. Punishing abuse in Iraq should not return the U.S. to Sept. 10, 2001, in the way it fights al Qaeda, while Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants remain at large and continue to plan attacks.

It is important to recognize the differences between the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism. The treatment of those detained at Abu Ghraib is governed by the Geneva Conventions, which have been signed by both the U.S. and Iraq. President Bush and his commanders announced early in the conflict that the Conventions applied. Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention, which applies to prisoners of war, clearly states: "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever." This provision would prohibit some interrogation methods that could be used in American police stations.

One thing should remain clear. Physical abuse violates the conventions. The armed forces have long operated a system designed to investigate violations of the laws of war, and ultimately to try and punish the offenders. And it is important to let the military justice system run its course. Article 5 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which governs the treatment of civilians in occupied territories, states that if a civilian "is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the States, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in favor of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State." To be sure, Article 31 of the Fourth Convention prohibits any "physical or moral coercion" of civilians "to obtain information from them," and there is a clear prohibition of torture, physical abuse, and denial of medical care, food, and shelter. Nonetheless, Article 5 makes clear that if an Iraqi civilian who is not a member of the armed forces, has engaged in attacks on Coalition forces, the Geneva Convention permits the use of more coercive interrogation approaches to prevent future attacks.

A response to criminal action by individual soldiers should begin with the military justice system, rather than efforts to impose a one-size-fits-all policy to cover both Iraqi saboteurs and al Qaeda operatives. That is because the conflict with al Qaeda is not governed by the Geneva Conventions, which applies only to international conflicts between states that have signed them. Al Qaeda is not a nation-state, and its members--as they demonstrated so horrifically on Sept. 11, 2001--violate the very core principle of the laws of war by targeting innocent civilians for destruction. While Taliban fighters had an initial claim to protection under the conventions (since Afghanistan signed the treaties), they lost POW status by failing to obey the standards of conduct for legal combatants: wearing uniforms, a responsible command structure, and obeying the laws of war.

As a result, interrogations of detainees captured in the war on terrorism are not regulated under Geneva. This is not to condone torture, which is still prohibited by the Torture Convention and federal criminal law. Nonetheless, Congress's definition of torture in those laws--the infliction of severe mental or physical pain--leaves room for interrogation methods that go beyond polite conversation. Under the Geneva Convention, for example, a POW is required only to provide name, rank, and serial number and cannot receive any benefits for cooperating.

The reasons to deny Geneva status to terrorists extend beyond pure legal obligation. The primary enforcer of the laws of war has been reciprocal treatment: We obey the Geneva Conventions because our opponent does the same with American POWs. That is impossible with al Qaeda. It has never demonstrated any desire to provide humane treatment to captured Americans. If anything, the murders of Nicholas Berg and Daniel Pearl declare al Qaeda's intentions to kill even innocent civilian prisoners. Without territory, it does not even have the resources to provide detention facilities for prisoners, even if it were interested in holding captured POWs.

It is also worth asking whether the strict limitations of Geneva make sense in a war against terrorists. Al Qaeda operates by launching surprise attacks on civilian targets with the goal of massive casualties. Our only means for preventing future attacks, which could use WMDs, is by acquiring information that allows for pre-emptive action. Once the attacks occur, as we learned on Sept. 11, it is too late. It makes little sense to deprive ourselves of an important, and legal, means to detect and prevent terrorist attacks while we are still in the middle of a fight to the death with al Qaeda. Applying different standards to al Qaeda does not abandon Geneva, but only recognizes that the U.S. faces a stateless enemy never contemplated by the Conventions.

This means that the U.S. can pursue different interrogation policies in each location. In fact, Abu Ghraib highlights the benefits of Guantanamo. We can guess that the unacceptable conduct of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib resulted in part from the dangerous state of affairs on the ground in a theater of war. American soldiers had to guard prisoners on the inside while receiving mortar and weapons fire from the outside. By contrast, Guantanamo is distant from any battlefield, making it far more secure. The naval station's location means the military can base more personnel there and devote more resources to training and supervision.

A decision by the Supreme Court to subject Guantanamo to judicial review would eliminate these advantages. The Justices are currently considering a case, argued last month, which seeks to extend the writ of habeas corpus to al Qaeda and Taliban detainees at Guantanamo. If the Court were to extend its reach to the base, judges could begin managing conditions of confinement, interrogation methods, and the use of information. Not only would this call on the courts to make judgments and develop policies for which they have no expertise, but the government will be encouraged to keep its detention facilities in the theater of conflict. Judicial over-confidence in intruding into war decisions could produce more Abu Ghraibs in dangerous combat zones, and remove our most effective means of preventing future terrorist attacks.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:22 pm
Something about how our prisoners are treated is equivalent to college hazings.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:28 pm
Since May 2004 there has been a lot of information - evidence - produced concerning torture and abuse of prisoners. This article needs to be updated because it's long past its use by date.

I shall now pause to allow the torrent of spin to descend from the Right upon this thread. Would those members of the Right who need to consult their oracles please do so now, the cut and paste festival is about to begin.
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:33 pm
Thank you, Ticomaya for providing a most excellent essay by a learned scholar, John Yoo. The essay is not, as Cicerone Imposter puts it, about Something about how are prisoners are treated are equivalent to college hazings.

The most critical line in the essay is the one which says:

Al Qaeda has never demonstated any desire to give prisoners good treatment so there can be no official quid pro quo.

John Yoo is a brilliant law professor at Berkeley since 1993, He is a graduate of Harvard and Yale Law School.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:43 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
That's what tico claims......

What is "what tico claims." Please be specific in your response, c.i.

Something about how our prisoners are treated is equivalent to college hazings.


You are referring to my speaking about something very specific. If you don't recall what exactly, it might be a good idea for you to not ascribe thoughts to me that don't belong to me.

McG wrote:
According to the report, the abuse included:

- Forcing detainees to perform exercises such as deep knee bends for hours on end, to the point of exhaustion.

- Blowing cigarette smoke into the sandbags the prisoners were forced to wear as hoods.

- Throwing cold water on the prisoners in a room that was between 40 degrees and 50 degrees.

- Blasting the detainees with heavy-metal music, yelling at them and banging on doors and ammunition cans.


I do not consider the above to be abusive or to be considered torture. Apparently the military investigative unit did not either.

Geligesti, do you exagerrate everything to the extreme you demonstrate here?


Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Since McG doesn't think it was torture, I guess he would volunteer to test his endurance by the same means of "torture.


<shrug> I will.


Sounds a lot like my college days. :wink:


http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1398576#1398576
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:49 pm
Damn I should have made a bet with someone. But then I suppose a bet requires some sort of chance. A sure thing isn't a bet. From that I suppose it would be unethical - nay even dishonest - to bet on a sure thing against someone who didn't know what was about to happen for sure.

Now I'm glad I didn't have a bet with someone after all Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2005 12:10 am
Okay, I'll bite: What would you have been betting on?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2005 12:22 am
Yes. We can agree that "terrorists" are not entitled to POW status in accordance with the Geneva Convention. But who determines the status of the detainees?

Status: POW? Lawful Combatant? Unlawful Combatant? Terrorist? Saboteur?

Detained lawful combatants are entitled to POW status under the Third Geneva Convention. Unlawful combatants must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial" under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Detained combatants are entitled to POW status. If there is doubt that the detainee is entitled to POW status, the detainee "shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal." GCIII, Article 5.

In an earlier post, it was noted that the United States prosecuted the Japanese following WWII for war crimes, i.e., refusing to grant POW status to some prisoners without having the status determined by a court of competent jurisdiction. Bush has likewise designated the detainees (all of them, in blanket fashion) as "illegal enemy combatants" and declared that the Geneva Convention does not apply and he has done so without allowing their status to be determined by a court of competent jurisdiction.

The LAW CLEARLY PROVIDES if there is any doubt about whether an alleged combatant is a "lawful combatant" then he must be held as a Prisoner of War until his status has been determined by "a competent tribunal."

The detainees had to file suit.

On June 28, 2004, the Supreme Court ruled in Rasul v. Bush that detainees could turn to U.S. courts to challenge their confinement.

On July 7, 2004, in response to the Supreme Court ruling, the Pentagon announced that cases would be reviewed by military tribunals.

On November 8, 2004, a federal court halted the proceeding of Salim Ahmed Hamdan of Yemen. Hamdan was to be the first Guantanamo detainee tried before a military commission. Judge James Robertson of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia ruled in Hamden v. Rumsfeld that no competent tribunal had found that Hamdan was not a prisoner of war under the Geneva Conventions.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2005 12:35 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Okay, I'll bite: What would you have been betting on?


No matter. Just a bit of self-indulgent, tongue-in-cheek humour.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2005 01:13 am
Hamdan v. Rumsfield
http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/04-1519.pdf

Salim Ahmed Hamdan petitions for a writ of habeas
corpus, challenging the lawfulness of the Secretary of Defense’s
plan to try him for alleged war crimes before a military
commission convened under special orders issued by the President
of the United States, rather than before a court-martial convened
under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The government moves
to dismiss. Because Hamdan has not been determined by a
competent tribunal to be an offender triable under the law of
war, 10 U.S.C. § 821, and because in any event the procedures
established for the Military Commission by the President’s order
are “contrary to or inconsistent” with those applicable to
courts-martial, 10 U.S.C. § 836, Hamdan’s petition will be
granted in part
. The government’s motion will be denied. The
reasons for these rulings are set forth below.

* * *

Page 5:

The only three
facts that are necessary to my disposition of the petition for
habeas corpus and of the cross-motion to dismiss are that Hamdan
was captured in Afghanistan during hostilities after the 9/11
attacks, that he has asserted his entitlement to prisoner-of-war
status under the Third Geneva Convention, and that the government
has not convened a competent tribunal to determine whether Hamdan
is entitled to such status. All of those propositions appear to
be undisputed.

* * *

Page 7:

In the context of this case, according comity to a military
tribunal would not “aid[] the military judiciary in its task of
maintaining order and discipline in the armed services,” or
“eliminate[] needless friction between the federal civilian and
military judicial systems,” nor does it deny “due respect to the
autonomous military judicial system created by Congress,”
because, whatever else can be said about the Military Commission
established under the President’s Military Order, it is not
autonomous, and it was not created by Congress
. Parisi, 405 U.S.
at 40.

* * *

Page 8:

The New case identifies an exception to the exhaustion
rule that it characterizes as “quite simple: a person need not
exhaust remedies in a military tribunal if the military court has
no jurisdiction over him.” New, 129 F.3d at 644. . . .

2. No proper determination has been made that Hamdan is an
offender triable by military tribunal under the law of war.


a. The President may establish military commissions only
for offenders or offenses triable by military tribunal
under the law of war
.

The major premise of the government’s argument that the
President has untrammeled power to establish military tribunals
is that his authority emanates from Article II of the
Constitution and is inherent in his role as commander-in-chief.
None of the principal cases on which the government relies, Exparte
Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942), Application of Yamashita, 327
U.S. 1 (1946), and Madsen v. Kinsella, 343 U.S. 341 (1952), has

* * *

Page 9:

so held. In Quirin the Supreme Court located the power in
Article I, § 8, emphasizing the President’s executive power as
commander-in-chief “to wage war which Congress has declared, and
to carry into effect all laws passed by Congress for the conduct
of war and for the government and regulation of the Armed Forces,
and all laws defining and punishing offences against the law of
nations, including those which pertain to the conduct of war.”
Quirin, 317 U.S. at 10 (emphasis added).

Quirin stands for the
proposition that the authority to appoint military commissions is
found, not in the inherent power of the presidency, but in the
Articles of War (a predecessor of the Uniform Code of Military
Justice) by which Congress provided rules for the government of
the army.
Id. Thus, Congress provided for the trial by courts
martial of members of the armed forces and specific classes of
persons associated with or serving with the army, id., and “the
Articles [of War] also recognize the ‘military commission’
appointed by military command as an appropriate tribunal for the
trial and punishment of offenses against the law of war not
ordinarily tried by court martial.” Id. The President’s
authority to prescribe procedures for military commissions was
conferred by Articles 38 and 46 of the Articles of War. Id. The
Quirin Court sustained the President’s order creating a military
commission, because “y his Order creating the . . . Commission

* * *

Page 10:

[the President] has undertaken to exercise the authority
conferred upon him by Congress . . . .” Id. at 11.

In Yamashita, the Supreme Court noted that it had “had
occasion [in Quirin] to consider at length the sources and nature
of the authority to create military commissions for the trial of
enemy combatants for offenses against the law of war,” Yamashita,
at 327 U.S. at 7, and noted:

[W]e there pointed out that Congress, in the
exercise of the power conferred upon it by
Article I, § 8 Cl. 10 of the Constitution to
‘define and punish . . . Offenses against the
Law of Nations . . .,’ of which the law of
war is a part
, had by the Articles of War
[citation omitted] recognized the ‘military
commission’ appointed by military command as
it had previously existed in United States
Army practice, as an appropriate tribunal for
the trial and punishment of offenses against
the law of war.

* * *

What was then Article 15 of the Articles of War is now
Article 21 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C.
§ 821. It provides:

The provisions of this chapter conferring
jurisdiction upon courts-martial do not
deprive military commissions, provost courts,
or other military tribunals of concurrent
jurisdiction with respect to offenders or
offenses that by statute or by the law of war
may be tried by military commissions, provost
courts, or other military tribunals.

Quirin and Yamashita make it clear that Article 21 represents
Congressional approval of the historical, traditional, nonstatutory
military commission. The language of that approval,
however, does not extend past “offenders or offenses that by
statute or by the law of war may be tried by military commissions

. . . .” 10 U.S.C. § 821.

* * *

Page 13:

b. The law of war includes the Third Geneva Convention,
which requires trial by court-martial as long as
Hamdan’s POW status is in doubt.


“From the very beginning of its history this
Court has recognized and applied the law of
war as including that part of the law of
nations which prescribes, for the conduct of
war, the status, rights and duties of enemy
nations as well as of enemy individuals.”

This language is from Quirin, 317 U.S. at 27-28. The United
States has ratified the Geneva Convention Relative to the
Treatment of Prisoners of War of August 12, 1949, 6 U.S.T. 3316,
74 U.N.T.S. 135 (the Third Geneva Convention). Afghanistan is a
party to the Geneva Conventions. The Third Geneva Convention is 6
acknowledged to be part of the law of war, 10/25/04 Tr. at 55;
Military Commission Instruction No. 2, § (5)(G) (Apr. 30, 2003);
32 C.F.R. § 11.5(g), http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2003/
d20030430milcominstno2.pdf. It is applicable by its terms in
“all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which
may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties,
even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.”
Third Geneva Convention, art. 2. That language covers the

* * *

Page 14:

hostilities in Afghanistan that were ongoing in late 2001, when
Hamdan was captured there. If Hamdan is entitled to the
protections accorded prisoners of war under the Third Geneva
Convention, one need look no farther than Article 102 for the
rule that requires his habeas petition to be granted:

A prisoner of war can be validly sentenced
only if the sentence has been pronounced by
the same courts according to the same
procedure as in the case of members of the
armed forces of the Detaining Power, and if,
furthermore, the provisions of the present
Chapter have been observed.7

The Military Commission is not such a court. Its procedures are
not such procedures.

The government does not dispute the proposition that
prisoners of war may not be tried by military tribunal. Its
position is that Hamdan is not entitled to the protections of the
Third Geneva Convention at all, and certainly not to prisoner-of-war
status, and that in any event the protections of the Third
Geneva Convention are not enforceable by way of habeas corpus.

(1) The government’s first argument that the Third
Geneva Convention does not protect Hamdan asserts that Hamdan was
captured, not in the course of a conflict between the United
States and Afghanistan, but in the course of a “separate”
conflict with al Qaeda. That argument is rejected. The

* * *

page 15:

government apparently bases the argument on a Presidential
“finding” that it claims is “not reviewable.” See Motion to
Dismiss at 33, Hicks v. Bush (D.D.C. No. 02-00299) (October 14,
2004). The finding is set forth in Memorandum from the
President, to the Vice President et al., Humane Treatment of al
Qaeda and Taliban Detainees(February 7, 2002),
http://www.library.law.pace.edu/research/020207_bushmemo.pdf,
stating that the Third Geneva Convention applies to the Taliban
detainees, but not to the al Qaeda detainees captured in
Afghanistan, because al Qaeda is not a state party to the Geneva
Conventions. Notwithstanding the President’s view that the
United States was engaged in two separate conflicts in
Afghanistan (the common public understanding is to the contrary,

see Joan Fitzpatrick, Jurisdiction of Military Commissions and
the Ambiguous War on Terrorism, 96 Am. J. Int’l. L. 345, 349
(2002) (conflict in Afghanistan was international armed conflict
in which Taliban and al Qaeda joined forces against U.S. and its
Afghan allies)), the government’s attempt to separate the Taliban
from al Qaeda for Geneva Convention purposes finds no support in
the structure of the Conventions themselves, which are triggered
by the place of the conflict, and not by what particular faction
a fighter is associated with.
See Amicus Brief of General
David M. Brahms (ret.), Admiral Lee F. Gunn (ret.), Admiral
John D. Hutson (ret.), General Richard O’Meara (ret.) (Generals

Click on URL to read entire case (47 pages):

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/04-1519.pdf
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2005 01:25 am
Court order:

(2) The government next argues that, even if the Third
Geneva Convention might theoretically apply to anyone captured in
the Afghanistan theater, members of al Qaeda such as Hamdan are
not entitled to POW status because they do not satisfy the test
established by Article 4(2) of the Third Geneva Convention --
they do not carry arms openly and operate under the laws and
customs of war. Gov’t Resp. at 35. See also The White House,
Statement by the Press Secretary on the Geneva Convention (May 7,
2003), http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/
20030507-18.html.

We know this, the government argues, because
the President himself has determined that Hamdan was a member of
al Qaeda or otherwise involved in terrorism against the United
States.
Id. Presidential determinations in this area, the
government argues, are due “extraordinary deference.” 10/25/04
Tr. at 38. Moreover (as the court was advised for the first time
at oral argument on October 25, 2004) a Combatant Status Review
Tribunal (CSRT)
found, after a hearing on October 3, 2004, that
Hamdan has the status of an enemy combatant “as either a member
of or affiliated with Al Qaeda.” 10/25/04 Tr. at 12.

Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention provides:

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons,
having committed a belligerent act and having
fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to
any of the categories enumerated in Article 4
such persons shall enjoy the protection of
the present Convention until such time as
their status has been determined by a
competent tribunal.

This provision has been implemented and confirmed by Army
Regulation 190-8, Enemy Prisoners of War, Retained Personnel,
Civilian Internees and Other Detainees, http://www.army.mil/
usapa/epubs/pdf/r190_8.pdf., Hamdan has asserted his entitlement
to POW status, and the Army’s regulations provide that whenever a
detainee makes such a claim his status is “in doubt.”
Army
Regulation 190-8, § 1-6(a); Hamdi, 124 S. Ct. at 2658 (Souter,
J., concurring). The Army’s regulation is in keeping with
general international understandings of the meaning of Article 5.
See generally Generals and Admirals Amicus Brief at 18-22.

Thus the government’s position that no doubt has arisen
as to Hamdan’s status does not withstand scrutiny, and neither
does the government’s position that, if a hearing is required by
Army regulations, “it was provided,” 10/25/04 Tr. at 40. There
is nothing in this record to suggest that a competent tribunal
has determined that Hamdan is not a prisoner-of-war under the
Geneva Conventions.


Hamdan has appeared before the Combatant
Status Review Tribunal, but the CSRT was not established to
address detainees’ status under the Geneva Conventions. It was
established to comply with the Supreme Court’s mandate in Hamdi,
supra, to decide “whether the detainee is properly detained as an
enemy combatant” for purposes of continued detention.

Memorandum
From Deputy Secretary of Defense, to Secretary of the Navy, Order
Establishing Combatant Status Review Tribunal 3 (July 7, 2003),
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2004/d20040707review.pdf; see
also Memorandum From Secretary of the Navy, Implementation of
Combatant Status Review Tribunal Procedures for Enemy Combatants
Detained at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Cuba (July 29, 2004),
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2004/d20040730comb.pdf.

The government’s legal position is that the CSRT
determination that Hamdan was a member of or affiliated with al
Qaeda is also determinative of Hamdan’s prisoner-of-war status,
since the President has already determined that detained al Qaeda
members are not prisoners-of-war under the Geneva Conventions,
see 10/25/04 Tr. at 37. The President is not a “tribunal,”
however.

The government must convene a competent tribunal (or
address a competent tribunal already convened) and seek a
specific determination as to Hamdan’s status under the Geneva
Conventions. Until or unless such a tribunal decides otherwise,
Hamdan has, and must be accorded, the full protections of a
prisoner-of-war.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2005 02:33 am
Stare decisis is a friend of democracy.
0 Replies
 
 

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