Harping On Abu Ghraib and Gitmo is Highly Misguided

Thank You, Gungasnake for your excellent pictures. I find it amazing that Parados claims that "gulag" does not mean torture.

chiczaira wrote:

Thank You, Gungasnake for your excellent pictures. I find it amazing that Parados claims that "gulag" does not mean torture.

Demokkkrats apparently never saw it that way. Henry Wallace (FDR's last VP prior to Truman) actually toured the CCCP INCLUDING the gulags and came back claiming that the gulags were simply a Russian version of something like the WPA. All it would have taken would have been for FDR to die in 42 and the US would have been a communist country.

gungasnake wrote:

chiczaira wrote:

Thank You, Gungasnake for your excellent pictures. I find it amazing that Parados claims that "gulag" does not mean torture.

Demokkkrats apparently never saw it that way. Henry Wallace (FDR's last VP prior to Truman) actually toured the CCCP INCLUDING the gulags and came back claiming that the gulags were simply a Russian version of something like the WPA. All it would have taken would have been for FDR to die in 42 and the US would have been a communist country.

Wouldn't this be a violation of the rules here?

Interesting Article Tico:

However it is fatally flawed in at least two ways:

1) The Berg beheadings and the like were done in Iraq - and not necessarily Al Queda operatives. Terrorists, sure, but this is a strict equation from Al Queda to Iraq - one thing the author is saying should not be done.

2) Debra Law was clear in her quotation of precedence that signing the Geneva convention does not matter when dealing with enemy combatants.

"This sentence: A response to criminal action by individual soldiers should begin with the military justice system, rather than efforts to impose a one-size-fits-all policy to cover both Iraqi saboteurs and al Qaeda operatives. That is because the conflict with al Qaeda is not governed by the Geneva Conventions, which applies only to international conflicts between states that have signed them. Al Qaeda is not a nation-state, and its members--as they demonstrated so horrifically on Sept. 11, 2001--violate the very core principle of the laws of war by targeting innocent civilians for destruction. While Taliban fighters had an initial claim to protection under the conventions (since Afghanistan signed the treaties), they lost POW status by failing to obey the standards of conduct for legal combatants: wearing uniforms, a responsible command structure, and obeying the laws of war."

goes directly against this precendence.

Furthermore, why did we seek a declaration of war when we sought retribution for 9/11 attacks? If they have no nation state, no infastructure, no uniforms, how come I see training camp videos where they all are wearing the SAME black hoods, being trained by SUPERIOR officers, and we even have hierarchies on TV every time we capture someone that says things like "Bin Laden's second in command"

3) If Geneva convention does not apply to detainees (despite multiple detainee's national status) then what does?

As was stated very clearly before:

a) This has been done before by the Japanese which we came to the decision was unlawful and immoral.

b) What IS the legal status of the detainees if not POW. The do not deserve to be tried in American legal courts - that we know.

This leads us to the concept that it seems immoral to suspend all of the God given rights a human has without any sort of proof that those rights deserve to be suspended.

We all know suspending a humans rights without proof is immoral - in order to morally prove that a crime against humanity has been committed we need some sort of hearing or trial.

What is the mystery here?

TF

revel wrote:

gungasnake wrote:

chiczaira wrote:

Thank You, Gungasnake for your excellent pictures. I find it amazing that Parados claims that "gulag" does not mean torture.

Demokkkrats apparently never saw it that way. Henry Wallace (FDR's last VP prior to Truman) actually toured the CCCP INCLUDING the gulags and came back claiming that the gulags were simply a Russian version of something like the WPA. All it would have taken would have been for FDR to die in 42 and the US would have been a communist country.

Wouldn't this be a violation of the rules here?

I don't think Gunga can stop himself. If he contributes to the conversation - which sadly is debateable - it is nearly impossible to get anything out of his sentences that filled with so much hate, misquotes, poor analogies and simple bullshit.

I am a patient man, but it get's really old... really fast.

...

Every single detainee currently being held at Guantanamo Bay has received a hearing before a military tribunal. Every one. As a result of those hearings, more than three dozen Gitmo detainees have been released. The hearings, called "Combatant Status Review Tribunals," are held before a board of officers, and permit the detainees to contest the facts on which their classification as "enemy combatants" is based.

Gitmo-bashers attack the Bush administration's failure to abide by the Geneva Conventions. But as legal analysts Lee Casey and Darin Bartram told me, "the status hearings are, in fact, fully comparable to the 'Article V' hearings required by the Geneva Conventions, in situations where those treaties apply, and are also fully consistent with the Supreme Court's 2004 decision in the Hamdi v. Rumsfeld case."

Treating foreign terrorists like American shoplifters -- with full access to civilian lawyers, classified intelligence, and all the attendant rights of a normal jury trial -- is a surefire recipe for another 9/11. That is why the Bush administration fought so hard to erect an alternative tribunal system -- long established in wartime -- in the first place.

The few critics who acknowledge the existence of the tribunals argue they aren't sufficient. They "provided due process in form, but not in substance," as Newsday put it. That view is shared by a Carter-appointed liberal judge, but an earlier decision by a Bush-appointed judge upheld the tribunals. In the end, courts will almost certainly affirm the legality of the Gitmo tribunals, which, as noted, were modeled after the due process standards described in the Hamdi decision.

That ruling, may I remind you, addressed the detention of a U.S. citizen as an enemy combatant. As former Attorney General William Barr noted last week in testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, "Obviously, if these procedures are sufficient for American citizens, they are more than enough for foreign detainees."

Do John McCain and the anti-Gitmo gang actually believe otherwise, or are they too clueless to realize the implications of their gulag-Pol Pot-Nazi-Eichmann-hellhole harangues?

44

Incredibly, if Roosevelt had died one year earlier, Stalin might
have immediately gained control of the United States presidency, Treasury
Department, and State Department. Soviet dupe Henry Wallace
would have become president, and it is very possible that he would
have made Soviet spy Harry Dexter White his Treasury secretary and
Soviet spy Alger Hiss his secretary of state.

In a formulation that would make Harvard-educated traitors titter,
Joe McCarthy called it "a conspiracy on a scale so immense as to
dwarf any previous such venture in the history of man. A conspiracy of
infamy so black that, when it is finally exposed, its principals shall be
forever deserving of the maledictions of all honest men."27With a campaign
of lies, liberals have turned McCarthy into the object "forever
deserving of the maledictions of all honest men." Summarizing the
views of all liberals, President Truman said, "I like old Joe. Joe is a
decent fellow."28Not McCarthy, of course, but Stalin. Truman loathed
Joe McCarthy.

Among the most notorious Soviet spies in high-level positions in
the Roosevelt and Truman administrations-now proved absolutely,
beyond question by the Soviet cables-were Alger Hiss at the State
Department; Harry Dexter White, assistant secretary of the Treasury
Department, later appointed to the International Monetary Fund by
President Truman; Lauchlin Currie, personal assistant to President
Roosevelt and White House liaison to the State Department under both
Roosevelt and Truman; Laurence Duggan, head of the Latin American
Desk at the State Department; Frank Coe, U.S. representative'
on the International Monetary Fund; Solomon Adler, senior Treasury
Department official; Klaus Fuchs, top atomic scientist; and Duncan
Lee, senior aide to the head of the OSS.

45

The late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan made a valiant effort
to defend Roosevelt's and Truman's maddening obtuseness to Soviet
agents in their employ, arguing that since they weren't told of the
Venona Project, how could they be sure?

From 1945 to 1946, J.Edgar Hoover deluged Truman, the attorney
general, and the secretary of state with increasingly urgent memos
indicating that Harry Dexter White was a spy.29The evidence was neither
flimsy nor ambiguous. In 1945, the prime minister of Canada flew
to Washington to warn the director of the FBI about a spy who clearly
had to be White. A Soviet defector, Igor Gouzenko, had left the Soviet
embassy in Canada, bringing hundreds of pages of documents with
him. His information led to twenty-two arrests in Canada. Gouzenko's
information identified White as a Soviet spy. Ex-spies Whittaker
Chambers and Elizabeth Bentley had also "independently and without
knowledge of each other's stories" named White as a Soviet spy.30In
the words of Sam Tanenhaus, biographer of Whittaker Chambers,
Hoover provided the Truman administration with "stark confirmation"
that Harry Dexter White (as well as Alger Hiss) was a Soviet agent.31
Truman responded by making White the top U.S. representative at the
International Monetary Fund.

Just months into his presidency, Eisenhower would take the astonishing
step of directing his attorney general, Herbert Brownell, to go on
national TV and announce that President Truman had appointed a
Soviet spy to be the top U.S. official at the IMF with full knowledge
that White had been reliably identified as a Soviet agent. It was a
breathtaking revelation. This would be like President Bush instructing
Attorney General John Ashcroft to hold a press conference announcing
that President Clinton had appointed Mohammed Atta to be secretary
of the Department of Transportation after being told Atta was a Muslim
terrorist. Truman responded to Brownell's statement by indignantly
denying he had ever seen an FBI report suggesting that White was a
spy. The FBI then produced the report....

88

Liberals treated Lattimore like some sort of abstract intellectual,
practically a poet, with no interest in politics whatsoever. To this day,
liberals deny that Lattimore had any connection to the State Department,
as if by refusing to admit something they can prevent it from
being true. A 1995 column in the Washington Post stated, "Lattimore,
of course, had never been in the State Department nor had he even
served as a consultant to it."53To say Lattimore had no effect on America's
China policy because he was not a permanent employee of the
State Department would be like saying Dick Morris had no effect on
Clinton's campaign strategy because he was not on the White House
payroll. To be sure, Morris never drew green V.S. Treasury checks, but
he was a close advisor to those who did. Lattimore actually was on the
V.S. payroll, drawing paychecks from both the Office of War Information
and the State Department as a member of the State Department's
Pauley Mission to Japan.

In any event, Lattimore's influence was far greater than his official
sinecures suggest. Lattimore's recommendations had a bad habit of
becoming official government policy. The left's Poet Laureate Lattimore
was hauled out of irrelevance by President Roosevelt-on the recommendation
of Soviet agent Currie-and sent to advise Chiang Kaishek
from 1941 to 1942.54He also accompanied Vice President Henry
Wallace on his trip to Siberia and China in 1944.55 Mter Lattimore
toured Stalin's slave-labor camps with Wallace, he gushed about the
wonderful things Stalin was doing for Russia. Using the standard
liberal talking point about Soviet slave-labor camps, Lattimore
described the gulags as "a combination Hudson's Bay Company and
TVA [Tennessee Valley Authority]." Stalin's other Manchurian candidate,
Henry Wallace, used the exact same phrase.56

Gunga has picked a very appropriate hero to worship which explains most of his/her posts.

You guys can laugh all you want, but those twelve pinko demokkkrat senators never got back into the US senate and it's still unrespectable to be a communist in America. Joe McCarthy won despite all the villification and demonization.

Never would have figured there was a connection between hepatitis and alcoholism.