CG and cjhsa
I read the animal rights link you provided.
Maybe I'm dense, but I'm not getting the connection.
Are you asking me if I think it's ok for a human to have sexual intercourse with an animal?
I really can't dignify those questions/remarks with any more of an answer.
My remarks were not PETA born - I don't know anything at all about them - and would never pretend I do.
My remarks came from both my mind and my heart. I don't need to belong to an organization to believe that harming animals or humans for sport is wrong.
I would do no harm to another animal, unless to protect myself, another person, or another animal being attaked.
I would have no problem shooting and killing an animal in those circumstances.
But seriously, really, I'm listening.
Someone who is in favor of fox hunting and the like, please explain to me exactly where the joy comes from killing a creature minding his own business.
Perhaps I'm naive, but I just don't get it.
Where is the fun -
two points:
1. Peter Singer is not the "founding father" of the PETA movement. PETA itself was founded by Ingrid Newkirk. Animal rights as a concept has been around much longer than Peter Singer's endorsement of it in his book Animal Liberation. Although that book is held in high regard by many concerned with animal rights, Singer is just one figure in the movement and his views do not sum up or represent the views of the entire movement, just as people like Jerry Falwell who think cartoon characters are gay don't represent all Christians.
2. The "foxes will overrun the countryside if they are not hunted by humans" argument doesn't hold water unless foxes are not indigenous to England (perhaps they are not). If they are naturally present there, then their numbers will naturally be controlled by the carrying capacity of the area.
This has turned out to be the strangest thread. I'm with Chai Tea. I simply don't "geddit."
yeah, I really didn't see the beastiality connection, either. I've heard a lot of arguments against concern for animal welfare, but never "If you're against hunting for sport, then you advocate sex with animals!" hmm...maybe cj can let us know how he felt this was connected to the topic soon
In Pa, hounds can only run the fox to ground. Fines are levied for killing, so the hunt master has a responsibility to keep the "entertainment" sustainable. However, one is allowed to Trap foxes with leg hold traps. If Im ever out in the field and I see traps, I always spring em.
I think the fox hunting "hobby" in the US is just a bunch of overly monied and wannabees who go through this ritual each fall and early winter. They get accoutered like a bunch of gay NASCAR drivers and , after enjoying the obligatory libations, go forth onto the permitted land to seek a good fox, why not? everyone likes good fox now and again. Its pretty much bloodless and even the good feature of culling the skanky foxes isnt accomplished by law.
What IM against is the use of pack hounds to hunt racoons in these all night events in which dogs are all over the countryside and thge owners just sit around a campfire getting hammered. Racoons are some of my favorite beasts and I cant see why the hell the hillbillies want to have their dogs tear em up.
The English are probably just po'd at the lazy nobles.
Ive watched (or half attempted to watch) a fox hunt a few years ago. My one neighbor, who loves it, tried explaining all the rules and other crap that goes with the days activities. Most of the rules seem to do mostly eith not getting in front of certain horses. The "sport" has more rules than bocce ball, and , I swear, most of them sound like the'yre made up as they go (sorta just like bocce ball).
Well, thats all I have to say on that, oh yeh, I am similarly entertained by the goings on at PETA klaverns .
McTag wrote:....There is cruelty in other things; in commercial fishing, in battery poultry rearing, veal calves, raising geese for pate. Hunting with rifles and shotguns is killing for fun, at bottom, and a pastime which gives pleasure to many. It is a subjective matter where the line should be drawn.
The fox has a better than evens chance of escape; not so the battery hen.
Ah, but if I had my way, McTag, none of these things would be allowed, rather than tolerating fox hunting because these other practices exist.
I agree with msolga. I fail to see the comparison with raising geese for pate and having a fox run to ground by a pack of dogs and lamers on horseback.
I am also at an utter loss to figure out what mg and cj thought they were bringing to the discussion with their rude sexual references.
msolga wrote:McTag wrote:....There is cruelty in other things; in commercial fishing, in battery poultry rearing, veal calves, raising geese for pate. Hunting with rifles and shotguns is killing for fun, at bottom, and a pastime which gives pleasure to many. It is a subjective matter where the line should be drawn.
The fox has a better than evens chance of escape; not so the battery hen.
Ah, but if I had my way, McTag, none of these things would be allowed, rather than tolerating fox hunting because these other practices exist.
Yes fair enough, we've all got our preferences. I believe you can measure stress in a cabbage plant when you pull a leaf off, and even when you uproot a nearby carrot.
I'm not being facetious. Mort of us would not mind stepping on a beetle; hindus would (mind). It is a subjective matter.
The politician does not exist yet who would advocate a ban on shooting and fishing.
So I say, these matters should be left to individuals, by and large, and should not be legislated about.
Intrepid has yet another avatar ? ! ? ! ?
Oh, i can't bear it . . .
(Pssst, there were no sexual references by Material Girl, did you perhaps mean CG?)
OOh, Im glad you said that.I just had a look as im sure i didnt say anything saucy.
Barstiality does nothing for me so the idea of posting anything along those lines wouldnt come into my head!!
Anyhoo, interesting comment about raising geese to make pate,which Im all for and raising chickens/cows etc so we can eat them.
I dont like the idea of animals being treated badly yet I eat meant and Im ok with animals being used solely for that(see the irony)
I know i dont partake in the event and im sure it gets the adrenaline pumping for the people involved but just think fox hunting is pointless and very unfair.
How about we set 100 very hungry lions chase after a human,its that kind of ratio.
Nobody would let that happen.
McTag wrote:...Yes fair enough, we've all got our preferences. I believe you can measure stress in a cabbage plant when you pull a leaf off, and even when you uproot a nearby carrot.
I'm not being facetious. Mort of us would not mind stepping on a beetle; hindus would (mind). It is a subjective matter.
I guess a carrot or the cabbage leaf must feel something when picked or uprooted, McTag, but this is hardly the same degree of cruelty that's inflicted on foxes in hunts, or battery chickens in cages .... It's a matter of degrees, really. I'd say that the fox & the battery chicken are suffering unnecessary & excessive cruelty for no good reason. As for cruelty for "fun" .... it's a concept I can't understand at all. I think it's barbaric.
My post about Peter Singer and his personal sickness was simply to remind people of who you roost with when you choose the anti-hunting side of things.
It also speaks volumes when you say you would never kill an animal except to defend yourself, then go happily to the market and buy a package of ground beef.
cjhsa wrote:My post about Peter Singer and his personal sickness was simply to remind people of who you roost with when you choose the anti-hunting side of things.
It also speaks volumes when you say you would never kill an animal except to defend yourself, then go happily to the market and buy a package of ground beef.
So there are no issues or movements that you care about, that also include people with whom you do not completely agree? Are you really suggesting that to be anti-hunting you must agree with people who say that beastiality is not necessarily to be deplored?
Setanta wrote:Intrepid has yet another avatar ? ! ? ! ?
Oh, i can't bear it . . .
(Pssst, there were no sexual references by Constitutional Girl, did you perhaps mean CG?)
I quote the following from material girl
Quote:Does this include sexual activities with animals?
We know what cj wrote and I was including the above reference as well.
Would you prefer Shatner, Setanta? Just remember, it is not bear season at the moment.
Nobody should every shoot a bear (BVT should back me up on this) and fox hunting with dogs is a bad thing.
[EDIT}
to change the name of Material Girl to Constitutional Girl
My sincere public apology to Material Girl for associating you with something that you did not write. I seem to have gotten the girls mixed up and I will be sure to be more careful in the future
cjhsa wrote:My post about Peter Singer and his personal sickness was simply to remind people of who you roost with when you choose the anti-hunting side of things.
It also speaks volumes when you say you would never kill an animal except to defend yourself, then go happily to the market and buy a package of ground beef.
I was wondering when the supermarket reference would come up. Humane <?> slaughter of animals for food cannot be compared to "sport" hunting where the animal may only be wounded etc., or being hunted to ground by dogs in a run for their life.
If you enjoy some kind of primeval thrill by shooting little birds, that is your perogative as it is not currently against the law. There are those of us who think it is barbaric and that is the way it is.
ConstitutionalGirl wrote:Chai Tea wrote:Fox hunting
Bull fighting
Greyhound racing
Cock fights
Pitt Bull fighting
etc.
All forcing living creatures with as much right to be here as humans, to engage in behaviors that would never be found to this extreme in nature.
Why not just rebuild the Coliseum and again force prisoners to engage in battles to the death with gladiators or other fierce beasts?
Animals are not here to serve as entertainment for humans.
They are here to live on this planet, bred, raise their young and engage in their species' activities.
Teasing, torturing, goading, terrifying, enraging other creatures who've done nothing to us for pleasure.........Shame, shame, shame on us.
Does this include sexual activities with animals?
Seriously, Intrepid, it wasn't material girl, it was constitutional girl. Poor mg shouldn't be blamed for the postings of cg... she'd have so much to answer for.
Thanks dora17,
I certainly messed that up! I have apologized on the previous post. I should have realized my mistake by the content of the post.
Red foxes are native to the British Isles, but not to the States where they were imported for sport.
Anyone who cannot make the connection to the supermarket should not be attempting to debate me.
People who hunt and fish, raise and produce food for human consumption have the closest relationship to the spirit of the wild. If you want to sit in your little ivory tower muching on your double cheeseburger, that's your problem.
Speaking of shooting bears, in New Jersey, the state in all its wisdom, under pressure from the "it's barbearic" crowd, banned bear hunting a few years ago. Now, the bears are multiplying faster than ever, and are using the most convenient food sources to feed their ever increasing numbers. That would be, breaking into kitchens, as well as eating pets and livestock.
Bears make good rug steaks. And you get a nice rug out of the deal too.
Good day.
cjhsa wrote:Anyone who cannot make the connection to the supermarket should not be attempting to debate me.
People who hunt and fish, raise and produce food for human consumption have the closest relationship to the spirit of the wild. If you want to sit in your little ivory tower muching on your double cheeseburger, that's your problem.
Speaking of shooting bears, in New Jersey, the state in all its wisdom, under pressure from the "it's barbearic" crowd, banned bear hunting a few years ago. Now, the bears are multiplying faster than ever, and are using the most convenient food sources to feed their ever increasing numbers. That would be, breaking into kitchens, as well as eating pets and livestock.
Bears make good rug steaks. And you get a nice rug out of the deal too.
Good day.
Bunk! How many cows live in the wild? In the civilized world, they move the bears to remote areas when then become too numerous.
What year did they ban bear hunting?...what was the bear population at the time?...what is the bear population today?...how many pets and livestock were killed and eaten by bears?...how many kitchens required remodelling?
Good day