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True Religion

 
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 1 Nov, 2019 04:48 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
1. Have you seen how rain gives life to dead land? If God can send down rain to give life to a dead land, is it not possible for God to give life to dead people?
The 'dead' land as you describe it has life in it, but the vision of life that we call life comes with the rain.

That aside - it is only an analogy, and need have no bearing on whether life after death exists. The same goes for the rest of your analogies. It's almost like saying "I really like the idea of life after death, so all of these (X analogies) can support my desire to believe in it. Such still comes down to the desire to believe in it. I'm not saying it is impossible, or doesn't exist - I have no issue with a belief in the afterlife (unless it drives one to do violence in this life). I'm saying I claim no certainty to such, and much less certainty to such than whether or not God exists.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Nov, 2019 05:07 pm
@vikorr,
The land which is dead may have life once. It became dead again and got life again and dead again. Anyways these are some observations one need to reflect upon. Without the concept of life in hereafter, belief in God means nothing.

If you dont deny the possibility of life after death that are you playing safe?
+I believe life after death exists and since this is something unknown to us, I wanted to be prepared for life after death. Just like if you want to go to a country you have never been, you will do your research before going to that country. So I looked into all religions and followed what I believed is the Divine guidance ( We have not yet discussed why I believe Islam is the only true religion).
+You on the other hand did not believe in hereafter and does not bother to know about it.
+Now suppose life after death does not exist, did I loose anything by believing in it? I don't think I loose anything. You did not loose anything either. Its win-win for both of us.
+What if life after death actually exists? Did I loose anything, again I did not and in fact I may have rewards awaiting for my hard work. How about you? Would you not like to play safe then?
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Nov, 2019 06:25 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Without the concept of life in hereafter, belief in God means nothing
Keh. I would have to completely and utterly disagree. Do you only believe in God for the reward he can give you? That makes no sense to me.

Quote:
+You on the other hand did not believe in hereafter and does not bother to know about it.
I'm quite sure you know that this isn't true.

Quote:
+Now suppose life after death does not exist, did I loose anything by believing in it? I don't think I loose anything. You did not loose anything either. Its win-win for both of us.
A fair observation.

Quote:
+What if life after death actually exists? Did I loose anything, again I did not and in fact I may have rewards awaiting for my hard work. How about you? Would you not like to play safe then?
This is the thing - life isn't about playing safe (I don't particularly like the phrase in this context), but rather, in the right way. My view is the motivation that would end with a reward in heaven, should come from within - the desire to be the best you can be, because it is the right thing....not because of a promised reward, but because that is who we want to be. There, if heaven exists, would be the sort of people I would want to end up in heaven with - not people who went about being 'good' for the promise of reward. If anything, I would respect this view more if it were just viewed as a bonus, and the simple desire to do right by your fellow man were the primary motivation.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 2 Nov, 2019 01:35 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Sure !
How about (1) male chauvinism, (2)arranged marriage, (3) polygamy, (4)homophobia, and (5) Sunni versus Shiite mutual atrocities. Laughing


BTW 'Cherry picking' refers to your failure to understand that 'evidence' lies in the eye of the beholder. A balanced view, looks at both the pro's and con's. It is obvious to me as an atheist that theism could be deemed 'beneficial' as it satisfies psychological and social needs for many humans, but that its diverse interpretation underscores its parochial mythological origins.(i.e. claims for superiority of one interpretation are just facile). But the big 'negative' is that by evoking divine authority, theism serves to rationalise social power structures which mitigate against basic human rights.

HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Nov, 2019 03:06 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
Quote:
Without the concept of life in hereafter, belief in God means nothing
Keh. I would have to completely and utterly disagree.


Do you really think that those who disbelieve in God will get away without any punishment? Or do you really think obedient servants of God and rebellions of God are equal?

Is it at all possible that in any kingdom, and particularly so splendid a kingdom as this, there should be no reward for those who serve obediently and no punishment for those who rebel? Reward and punishment are virtually non-existent here; there must therefore be a Supreme Tribunal somewhere else.

What's the point of believing in an unseen God when you never get to see Him in this world or in Hereafter?

Quote:
Quote:
+You on the other hand did not believe in hereafter and does not bother to know about it.
I'm quite sure you know that this isn't true.


My bad. I know you are unsure of the existence of life hereafter. I was just trying to put together a scenario based on certain assumptions which includes a person who believes in life after death and the other who does not believe in life after death.

Anyways the point was illustrated in my previous post that the one who does not believe in life hereafter death will end up loosing everything if the existence of life after death comes out to be true.

One other thing I want you to think is that how would you know what is there waiting for us in life after death? Who is God? What are His attributes? These are matters of unseen and can we know everything about unseen things with our intelligence alone or would a revelation be necessary to reveal the knowledge of unseen?

Quote:
Quote:
+What if life after death actually exists? Did I loose anything, again I did not and in fact I may have rewards awaiting for my hard work. How about you? Would you not like to play safe then?
This is the thing - life isn't about playing safe (I don't particularly like the phrase in this context), but rather, in the right way. My view is the motivation that would end with a reward in heaven, should come from within - the desire to be the best you can be, because it is the right thing....not because of a promised reward, but because that is who we want to be. There, if heaven exists, would be the sort of people I would want to end up in heaven with - not people who went about being 'good' for the promise of reward. If anything, I would respect this view more if it were just viewed as a bonus, and the simple desire to do right by your fellow man were the primary motivation.


Okay you can call it right way of living but the main point is that what is the right way? If life after death is real and God is going to judge us then is it not fair to expect from God to reveal the knowledge of unseen to us so that we can be better prepared? Is it not fair to expect from God to reveal His Divine law based on which we will be judged?

Remember in my last post I gave an example that if you want to visit a country you never visited before then naturally you would like to search about that country. You would like to know what to visit in that country, where to live, what laws to follow and what to do to keep yourself safe. Same analogy can be used for preparing to meet our Lord in the Hereafter. We need to know what is right not based on what we think but based on Divine Law. We need to know what happens right after death. We need to know what happens in our graves, what happens from time of after death till resurrection of all human beings, what happens on the day of Judgement, what hell and paradise look like? What can we do to avoid the anger of God and what can we do to seek His pleasure, what are some of the actions which will have a very high reward etc. These are the things we can't know with our own intellect. Divine guidance is a must for this and prophets are necessary to show how to put that Divine law in practice through their own moral conduct.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Nov, 2019 03:45 pm
@fresco,
The first question I should ask you is, "Would you still deal with interest knowing all the ills it brings to humanity?

Quote:
Sure !
How about (1) male chauvinism, (2)arranged marriage, (3) polygamy, (4)homophobia, and (5) Sunni versus Shiite mutual atrocities.


God willing, I will address all these topics in future one by one. Some of these topics are inter related so I may cross reference those in my future posts. Thanks for asking me to address these issues as I am sure our discussion will help to remove many doubts.

Quote:
BTW 'Cherry picking' refers to your failure to understand that 'evidence' lies in the eye of the beholder. A balanced view, looks at both the pro's and con's. It is obvious to me as an atheist that theism could be deemed 'beneficial' as it satisfies psychological and social needs for many humans


Thanks for the advice, I try my best to keep a balanced views and look at both sides of the coin. My perspective is definitely different than your and hence my conclusions are different. Anyways, I urge you to use the same balanced view you are asking me to use and this will help you answer many question you have about faith and believe in God.

Thanks for acknowledging some positive aspects of theism.

Quote:
but that its diverse interpretation underscores its parochial mythological origins.(i.e. claims for superiority of one interpretation are just facile). But the big 'negative' is that by evoking divine authority, theism serves to rationalize social power structures which mitigate against basic human rights.


Religion has been used through out human history to control the lives of the people by those who were in power. If this use has violated the basic rights given by the religion itself then we dont blame religion for that but we should blame those who misused the religion. I can't speak for other religions but as for as I have read and understood Islam, it emphasises a lot on human rights. I am sure you will disagree with me but lets continue our dialogue on social issues and the solution which Islam offers and hope you will start seeing the light.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Nov, 2019 04:57 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
Sure !
How about (1) male chauvinism, (2)arranged marriage, (3) polygamy, (4)homophobia, and (5) Sunni versus Shiite mutual atrocities.


Okay so I am going to address the very first topic you picked which is
"Male Chauvinism and Islam."
My response will be very long as I will try to cover the history of how women have been viewed in different cultures over the past 2500 + years. In this post I will represent the history of Western view of women which I think is necessary to know before we discuss Islamic view of women. In my next post I will cover how women are viewed in Islam. I am not discussing culture as culture is not part of Islamic teachings. I may end up covering culture and its impact on Islam in my last post if it appeared to be necessary.

When we discuss women and their rights, there are basically two world views. These two views are often in conflict - not only on the personal level where individual human beings are making choices, but also on the international level in terms of the debate over the authenticity and correctness of these two world views.

The first world view is the Western liberal view. A view which claims to draw its roots from the Judeo-Christian tradition that probably, upon investigation, is more well rooted in the ideas that appeared after the reformation; ideas that are rooted in secularism and the world view that appeared thereafter during the ‘era of enlightenment’.

The second view is that of the Muslims - the Islamic world view, and this view says that its roots and ideas lie in the revelation given by God (or Allah in Arabic) to Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him. Those who proclaim this view say that it can be used by humanity during all ages and times, and that its relevance and benefit is not restricted to a certain period of time, geographic area or certain race of human beings.

Likewise, the adherents of the first view, that of Western secularism and the liberal tradition, believe that their world view, ideas, culture and civilization are the best for humanity. An American author of Japanese decent (Francis Fukuyama) wrote a book entitled, “The End of Time”. In this book he basically put forth the theory that human development in terms of its ideas has concluded with this final period of liberal secular thought and nothing more will come to humanity. However in his book he adds that that the only part of the world which has not adopted this secular human view is the Islamic world and proposes that there will be a conflict in terms of this ideology in the Islamic world.

With that brief introduction, one of the topics of contention between these two world views, that of the secular liberal view in the West and the Islamic tradition, concerns women. What is the position and status of women? How are women looked at? Are women elevated in one culture and oppressed in another?


The Western view is that women are elevated only in the West and that they are getting more and more rights with the passage of time, while their sisters - they say - in the Islamic world are still being suppressed. The Muslims who they encounter say that in actuality it is the Islamic system that provides the true freedoms for men and women alike, and women in the West as well as men, are deceived into an idea of freedom which really doesn’t exist.

How women are understood in Islam cannot be properly understood - and this is more significant, I feel - unless one understands exactly what we might call the philosophical basis or ideological understanding - since this is really a theological concept.

First, let’s review how exactly women were thought of and understood in the western tradition, to compare and contrast perspectives. We know that the western tradition sees itself as the intellectual inheritors of the Greek tradition that existed before Prophet Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, and so therefore many of the intellectual traditions of the West are found to some degree in the writings of the early Greek philosophers like Aristotle, Plato, etc.
How did they view women? What were the ideas of Aristotle and Plato regarding women? When one reviews the works of these early Greek philosophers, he finds that they had very disparaging views of women. Aristotle in his writings argued that women were not full human beings and that the nature of woman was not that of a full human person. As a result, women were by nature deficient, not to be trusted and to be looked down upon. In fact, writings describe that the free women in many aspects of the Greek society - except for the very few women of the elite classes - had positions no better than animals and slaves.
This Aristotelian view of women was later carried on into the early Christian tradition of the Catholic Church. Saint Thomas of Aquinas in his writings proposed that women were the trap of Satan. The issue of Adam and Eve added a dimension to the earlier Greek ideas of Aristotle; women were the cause of the downfall of man and therefore were Satan’s trap and should be looked at with caution and weariness because they caused the first downfall of humanity and all thus evil precedes from women. This type of thought was persistent within the writings of the Church fathers throughout the Middle Ages. In their writings we find this theme proposed in one aspect or another.

However, after the Protestant reformation Europe decided to free itself from the shackles and chains of the Catholic Church. Ideas which have been entitled as the Age of Enlightenment or thought of as such, caused them to feel that they needed to free themselves from many of these ideas. Some of these ideas were scientific in nature that the earth goes around the sun, instead of the sun going around the earth; theological in nature, as in the writings of Martin Luther; and also social in nature, like the position of women in society. However, the writers of the Enlightenment still carried this basic theme that was not much of a switch - women where not full human beings. French writers during the revolution, like Rousseau, Voltaire and others, looked at women as a burden that needed to be taken care of. Due to this Rousseau in his book “Emile”, proposed a different form of education for women based upon the fact that women were unable to understand what men were able to understand.
This is the tradition that the West inherited and thereafter we find in the 1800’s the first writings appearing by women and some men calling for the change of these ideas. And with this we have the origins of the first feminine movements. One of the first books written was the “Vindication for the Rights of Women” by Mary Walsencraft which appeared in the 1800’s. Thereafter the tradition of women receiving certain rights came. The first of these were basically legal rights because until the 1800’s women were not able to own property and were not able to dispose of their wealth as men did. It is very well known that the first laws that allowed women to own property in the United States or in Europe appeared only in the last couple of decades of the 1800’s.
The Industrial Revolution caused another impetus, another search, to this feminist movement. Women in the Industrial Revolution, especially England, were forced to labor for many hours in the coal mines and so forth, and would receive no pay whatsoever compared to men. So therefore the first calling of the movement was that people who work the same amount of hours deserved the same amount of money or pay.
Finally a break occurred in this century of basically all which is understood from the Western tradition. Coming from the latter feminist movement which appeared after World War II, a new movement called for the emancipation of women not only in terms of legal rights, but it also questioned some of the morals of society and called for greater sexual freedoms for women and men alike. It contended that basically a lot of problems were caused by the institution of marriage and the ideas of family and so forth. People wrote concerning the need to break from these.
And finally in the 1990’s, the prevalent argument in the West is that we should discuss genders, not sexes. This idea was expressed in a book which came out called “The Age of Extremes”. The author discusses the idea that there is no difference between male or female and that gender is so only due to environment. So therefore we can change the environment so that men could take the roles of women and women take the roles of men by changing the education and climate. This is where it has ended up now. So we find in this 2500 year old western tradition, we come from the first extreme which was expressed by the Greeks, where women were denied their essential humanity, to this extreme expressed today where there is no differences between the sexes and it is an issue of gender, climate and environment. This is, of course, a very brief summary of the first world view. I didn’t do justice to those 2500 years in just those few minutes, but it just gives us an idea.
The other view which I would like to talk about in more detail is the Islamic view and I will cover that in my next post. Just want to check if you agree so far with me?
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Nov, 2019 11:09 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Do you really think that those who disbelieve in God will get away without any punishment? Or do you really think obedient servants of God and rebellions of God are equal?
This isn't quite the same topic as the one I replied to, which was:
Quote:
Without the concept of life in hereafter, belief in God means nothing

-------------------
Quote:
Is it at all possible that in any kingdom, and particularly so splendid a kingdom as this, there should be no reward for those who serve obediently and no punishment for those who rebel?
You're comparing human concepts of how to run a kingdom (with all the imperfections that humanity entails - including inability to truly tell a persons heart, and often the inability to identify lies)...to how God would run his Kingdom - a God who understands each persons heart, and whether or not they are lying...?

And as I mentioned previously, as another complexity to your question, you would have to answer why God allowed a person who had been bad his entire life (ie rebelled etc against God), who changed their heart just prior to dying, to enter heaven (it doesn't seem to fit your concept of justice, or who should be punished)

You also need to look at the concept of 'obediently', with Jesus saying 'not all those who say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven'. The facade of 'obediently' could indeed still be obedient, but not in the right way.

You and I must see justice in this in a different way. I see those who make to heaven as being good because they want to be good deep inside - meaning heaven would just be a bonus. That is the only way the heart can be right. Doing so for external reward means you aren't doing it because deep inside that is who you want to be, but for reward.

Is reward wrong? No. However it appears the kingdom of heavens entry relates to the heart. And how can the heart be right if its motivation is reward?

Quote:
Okay you can call it right way of living but the main point is that what is the right way? If life after death is real and God is going to judge us then is it not fair to expect from God to reveal the knowledge of unseen to us so that we can be better prepared? Is it not fair to expect from God to reveal His Divine law based on which we will be judged?
You mean that you want God to give you handouts, in writing, so that it can later be read out of context, or misunderstood, or the reasoning behind it not explained, and left for others to create explanations for such?

Practised honesty is a much more reliable guide (it's just very rare in humans).
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Nov, 2019 06:27 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Do you understand that there are people who would freely choose to reject Islam even if (especially if) everything you have said about it is true?
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Nov, 2019 10:43 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
This isn't quite the same topic as the one I replied to, which was:
Quote:
Without the concept of life in hereafter, belief in God means nothing


This indeed was reply to the same topic and I even quoted your and my conversation at the start of my reply before answering to this. Link of my previous post is below:

https://able2know.org/topic/534961-10#post-6922203

Again to summarize what I wanted to say is that we know there are people who believe in God and there are those who don't. Are we judged for our belief in this world? No we are not, so life after death only make sense to those who truly believe in God. Rejection of life after death means believers and no believers are equal and that can't be the case. That’s why I said if one does not believe in life after death then his/her believe in God means nothing.

Quote:
You're comparing human concepts of how to run a kingdom (with all the imperfections that humanity entails - including inability to truly tell a persons heart, and often the inability to identify lies)...to how God would run his Kingdom - a God who understands each persons heart, and whether or not they are lying...?


There is nothing wrong in using such comparison to understand our relationship with God and to understand attributes of God, all we can do with our limited intellect is to use analogies from this world to make sense of unseen. You also agreed previously that that's how we learn based on our observation of things around us.

God of course is not like a worldly King but that does not mean God shall not punish those who rebel against Him and reward those who truly believed in Him when everyone else thought they are crazy.

Quote:
And as I mentioned previously, as another complexity to your question, you would have to answer why God allowed a person who had been bad his entire life (ie rebelled etc against God), who changed their heart just prior to dying, to enter heaven (it doesn't seem to fit your concept of justice, or who should be punished)


This is how I started this thread:

Quote:
Each person is born in a circumstance which is not of his own choice. The religion of his family or the ideology of the state is thrust upon him from the very beginning of his existence in this world. By the time he reaches his teens, he is usually fully brain-washed into believing that the beliefs of his particular society are the correct beliefs that everyone should have. However, when some people mature and are exposed to other belief-systems, they begin to question the validity of their own beliefs. The seekers of truth often reach a point of confusion upon realizing that each and every religion, sect, ideology and philosophy claims to be the one and only correct way for man. Indeed, they all encourage people to do good. So, which one is right? They cannot all be right, since each claims all others are wrong.


The point being we all take different journeys and all what matters is that we remain sincere and keep searching for truth and keep asking God to guide us to the truth. If one finds that truth right before the death and accepts the truth without any hesitation, all of his/her previous sins are forgiven. Allah is Just but He is also Merciful and Forgiving and His mercy overcomes His wrath.
Quran says:
Quote:
Your Lord has inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (Quran 6:54)

In a hadith Prophet Muhammad PBUH said:
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Allah's mercy prevails over His wrath

Allah created humankind with an inclination to commit sins and make mistakes, however when a person repents he or she is able to see and experience Allah’s divine attributes of mercy and forgiveness.
Prophet Muhammad said:
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If you did not commit sins, Allah would wipe you out of existence and replace with another people who would commit sins and in turn seek Allah’s forgiveness. (Muslim)

Moral lesson is that we all make mistakes and none of us can go to heaven with our own deeds. Those who make mistakes and always turn back to Allah and repent are successful. As long as we keep repenting (means trying our best not to commit that sin again), we are good.

In another hadith Prophet Muhammad PBUH said:

Quote:
Follow the right course, seek nearness to Allah, and give glad tidings. Verily, none of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone. The companions of Prophet Muhammad PBUH said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allah?” The Prophet said, “Not even me, unless Allah grants me his mercy. Know that the most beloved deed to Allah is that which is done regularly, even if it is small.” [Sahih Muslim and Bukhari]


Devil play a big role here. He always tells us that we are so sinful and don’t deserve Allah’s Mercy. He created hopelessness within us and that what turns human beings away from God. We need to admit that we make mistakes and constantly repent for our sins. We need to get rid of anger, hopelessness and any arrogance to be the one who truly repents to God at all times.

Anyways now if someone finds God at last minutes and truly repents then Allah is Merciful and forgiving. Now what about those who remain arrogant and never repented for their sins, never asked for forgiveness and never believed in God and life hereafter? Do they deserve Allah’s Mercy or anger? I leave that for you to decide.

Quote:
You also need to look at the concept of 'obediently', with Jesus saying 'not all those who say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven'. The facade of 'obediently' could indeed still be obedient, but not in the right way.

I am so glad that you asked about this. This is why it is important to know what the right way is, hence the topic of my thread. There are many Christians who truly think they are obedient to God but are they worshiping the true God or God’s creation? If their focus of worship is only Jesus PBUH then their worship is in vain. Similarly being a Muslim does not mean that one gets the ticket to paradise. Faith has to truly enter in our hearts. When Muslims say that there is no God but Allah then it means a lot. It means that focus of their entire worship is none but Allah. They should do things which pleases Allah and stay away from things with are forbidden in Islam. Sadly many born Muslims are as far from true Islam as non-Muslims are. Why? Because most of us follow what our forefather followed and we tend to have a blind faith. That’s why Islam reject blind faith. It asks us to use our intellect and observe natural phenomenon around us to first establish a true faith. Once we truly establish that there is one God and after life makes senses then we can start looking into religions who believe in it to see which one meets that criteria. Based on my research, Islam is the only religions which answers all of my questions.

Quote:
You and I must see justice in this in a different way. I see those who make to heaven as being good because they want to be good deep inside - meaning heaven would just be a bonus. That is the only way the heart can be right. Doing so for external reward means you aren't doing it because deep inside that is who you want to be, but for reward. Is reward wrong? No. However it appears the kingdom of heavens entry relates to the heart. And how can the heart be right if its motivation is reward?


Our creator knows our psychology better than anyone else. He knows that fear, love and hope can all be motivations for human beings. It is best to have a complete balance of hope and fear with overwhelming love, for love is the vehicle, while hope is the guide and fear the driver.
There is a saying in Arabic which means:
Quote:
The heart in its journey towards Allah is like a bird whose head is love, and hope and fear are its two wings.

When the head and the two wings are sound and healthy the flight of the bird is good, but when the head is cut off, it immediately dies, and when either or both wings are deficient, the bird cannot fly properly and may become victim of any hunter or snare.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Nov, 2019 10:46 am
@Leadfoot,
I understand that my friend. My job is only to convey the message, and pray that Allah opens people's heart towards Islam. At the end of the day, Allah knows better than I do and He guides whom He wills.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Nov, 2019 02:44 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
This indeed was reply to the same topic and I even quoted your and my conversation at the start of my reply before answering to this. Link of my previous post is below:
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding - you said that without the concept of life in the hereafter, belief in God means nothing. This means to me 'what's the point of believing in God if there is no hereafter?' To me, why do you need a 'point' to believe in God? He otherwise exists, or he doesn't. Everything outside of the afterlife that you have used to 'show' he exists, exists, or it doesn't. The hereafter shouldn't change your belief in the existence of God - though maybe it might change what you think of him.

You reply didn't quite capture the essence of the above.

Quote:
There is nothing wrong in using such comparison to understand our relationship with God and to understand attributes of God, all we can do with our limited intellect is to use analogies from this world to make sense of unseen. You also agreed previously that that's how we learn based on our observation of things around us.
We agree, aside from two things:
- my examples of using patterns here on earth related to right & wrong. If you noticed, justice wasn't something I engaged in with much certainty. Your questions relate to justice.
- I also added another layer - related to religious attributes of admission to heaven. While I may hold some doubt over these, they are within your realm, and the realm of each of our beliefs is where we need consistency. Hence the examples relating to admission that didn't seem to meet your requirements for justice, but rather, requirements of the heart. The point is, you may be misunderstanding the admissions process. Or you may not.

I have to head off to work. Haven't quite finished your post. I see a lot of religious quotes (it's likely I have no issue with them)
0 Replies
 
Jewels Vern
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Nov, 2019 12:55 pm
Religionm is made up by men telling each other what to do. It is possible to have more religions than people. It is possible for some or even several religions to be valid or at least useful.

Islam denies that Jesus is the son of God but accepts him as a prophet and then ignores the instructions he gave to his followers. I would not consider spending any time with a religion that accepts a lying prophet, or refuses to follow a prophet they claim to accept.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Nov, 2019 01:01 pm
@Jewels Vern,
Are you deliberately obtuse or does it come naturally? Muslims don't accuse Jesus of lying, they accuse the church hierarchy of lying about his divinity.

I don't think Jesus ever said he was the son of God and when Pilate asks him about being king of the Jews he says those are not his words.

Either you're deliberately misinterpreting or you don't understand something that's quite simple.

In either case you shouldn't be debating something you either don't understand or simply want to ridicule.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2019 03:16 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
I am so glad that you asked about this. This is why it is important to know what the right way is, hence the topic of my thread.
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant when I said 'in the right way'.

My writing tends to be interwoven - it can be broken into parts, but it also makes less sense when removed from the whole. If you read what I have previously said as relates to the 'right way', entrance to heaven, how to know what is good and bad etc - you will find that I am not talking about 'as shown by doctrine', but rather, as shown by an honestly developed humanity.

Quite frankly - once I came to understand this, I found I could not go back to strict doctrine. It was one of the catalysts for moving away from religion.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2019 05:56 am
@izzythepush,
You seem to be saying it is ok for Islam to accuse Christian prophets of lying but not the reverse . Not very objective.

And yes, Jesus said that God himself revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God. And then there was the time God himself said it when John baptised him.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2019 06:01 am
@Leadfoot,
Christian profits? We're not talking evangelicals.

Are you being deliberately stupid as well? I never said anything of the sort, I said JV was deliberately, and simplistically, misrepresenting Islam's position.

If you consider JV to be a Christian prophet then you must be seriously fucked up.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2019 06:05 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

And yes, Jesus said that God himself revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God. And then there was the time God himself said it when John baptised him.


Your first sentence is all over the place, it's not clear who's claiming what. Normally when people are so opaque they have something to hide.

Can you provide a quotation please, similarly with your second point. I don't remember the heavens opening and God having a walk on part during Christ's baptism.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2019 06:16 am
@izzythepush,
It's not much use debating what is in a book when you are clearly unfamiliar with it.

Try Matt 3:17 for a God `walk-on`.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2019 06:25 am
@izzythepush,
PS: Islam is clearly saying that the Bible writers were lying about who Jesus was. Dont pretend we are talking about you or JV.
 

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