5
   

True Religion

 
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2019 04:05 pm
@vikorr,
If we can have user guide by a manufacturer for any man made device, then we human beings are far more complex than man made things. Right?
SO what I mean by this is that we should also have our user's guide by our creator. Hope that makes sense. Let me know if that's not clear.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2019 04:16 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
I think it's an inaccurate analogy. If I were comparing the user guide of a phone etc to a person, I would end up with:
- psychology and/or
- medical charts for the body etc

If you mean - why would he not leave us a guide to how we should behave - I already answered that. He has - our emotional bonds, our compassion, our conscience, our ability to be introspective, our ability to reason, our ability to see patterns in the world, and using that - our ability to forecast the outcomes of our actions.

Anyone who cares to look inside themselves and become in touch with such, who lives by what they find, usually ends up amongst the best of us. Religion is one path that allows people to achieve this (the internal awareness, and the living by principles). It is not the only path.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2019 04:38 pm
@vikorr,
I think I did reply to your posts but may be it was not detailed enough. Let me reply again.

vikorr Wrote
Quote:
This is incorrect. He gave us:

- emotional ties to other people & the need to be parts of groups or society
- a conscience
- the ability to reason
- the ability to see the long term outcome of actions


I agree that God has given us these tools to reflect on His creations around us and to find the truth. This is what Quran has mentioned number of times that Allah has given us eye to see, ear to hear and intellect to think and analyze things and yet we don't thanks Him.

vikorr wrote
Quote:
People are able to access within themselves, the understanding of the right way to do things.

Many examples of this exist outside of religion, where people do things in the right way, not because of religion, but because:
- the see the outcomes of actions, and choose actions that have good outcomes; and/or
- they want to achieve something good in this life; and/or
- they want within themselves, to be good, for themself; and/or
- they just believe in doing things in the right way.


I mentioned that what is true to you may not be true to others. Truth you are talking about is relative and changes from person to person based on their experience. You also need to see that we have our limitations. We can't see what future holds and many times we suffer by making wrong decisions. So we are not fully capable to make 100% right decisions in our lives. We need guidance from our creator who created us because he knows us better than we know ourselves. I just replied to one of your posts by giving an example of user manual and hope that will make sense.

Quote:
Please – religion is its ideology. Without the ideology, there is no religion, no Islam, no Christianity, no religion at all. You take a name of your religion, separate it from its ideology, then say ‘Adam followed Islam’…which ideology he did not. You later attempt to say the same thing about Jesus – which ideology of Islam he did not teach.

You attempt to say ‘they just didn’t know it was Islam’…with the strong implication it was just an incomplete form of your own Islam. Yet we both know Jesus would never have agreed to raids, nor conquest (even if his hypocritical followers later did such). You can claim such of Adam, and yet you can’t say he wouldn’t have been nonplussed by any of the religions that have sprung up.

Or from another angle – you attempt to create a strong implication that ‘Adam followed ‘the Islam I am promoting by submitting’…which he did not (there is way more to the religion of Islam than just submission). And using ‘Adam Submitted to God’ like ‘Muslims submitted to God’ is like saying ‘Christians Pray, and Muslims pray –so all Christians must be Muslims’ – you know this isn’t true. The ideology after that is different.

And it is odd is it not, that Adam, having been created by God, did not bow down X times per day, nor on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.

By the way, you also cannot claim the name Islam to be Holy or Divine. It is drawn out of Arabic language of the time. Like other religions, they take meanings from their own language of the time. By this reckoning, all the other languages used for religions are also divine. Your claim to differentiation is "we used a concept rather than a person or group for our name". Not actually a bad argument, but not a deal maker.


Fundamentals from the beginning are the same which is to believe in one God and submit to what God says. As for his laws are concerned they changed based on the circumstances. For example; at the time of Adam PBUH it was allowed tobe married with your own sisters (not to the twin sister). But later on this changed.

Similarly we have laws given in OT which Jesus himself folowed, Islam came with similar laws and made those easy for rest of the humanity. For example, there was no upper limit of marriages. Bible mentions that Prophet Solomon had 700 wives. Islam put an upper limit on marriages.

But the fundmentals did not change. Most important thing is to believe in one God alone. Today we find this only in Islam and hence truth stands out.

Christians do claim that Jesus is son of god but it has no biblical proof. There are Christians who use the same Bible and don't believe in Jesus as god. Read Quran, OT and NT and you can easy see that OT and Quran seems to convey a message different than today's Christianity. Jesus never preached to worship him and he never preached about trinity.

Quote:
Quote:
One method by which the answer can be found is to clear away the superficial differences in the teachings of the various claimants to the ultimate truth, and identifies the central object of worship upon which they call, directly or indirectly. False religions all have in common one basic concept with regard to God: they either claim that all men are gods, or that specific men were God, or that nature is God, or that God is a figment of man’s imagination. Thus, it may be stated that the basic message of false religion is that God may be worshipped in the form of His creation. False religions invite man to the worship of creation by calling the creation or some aspect of it God.
Yet another claim. You offer no proof that such are false religions. By the way, I’m not even saying you are wrong. I’m saying you offer no evidence.


I just started posting some proofs and it will a very long series of proofs not just few.

Quote:
What makes you so sure that God created everyone to worship him, or even that he needs worship? Seems rather egotistical doesn’t it? A being of mass and infinite creation, ruler of the infinite reaches of space, father of all life…needing or even wanting one aspect of creation to worship him. Rather, is it not your need to worship that drives you to want to believe this of God?


God does not need our worship. We benefit from His worship. It appears to me that may be I should first discuss if God exists or not. I thought you were very clear on that. I dont want to go off the topic but I can set up a separate thread just to discuss existance of God. When we worship God, it reminds us of our purpose and we stay on the right path. If we dont worship God, then we start following our desires which makes us followers of Satan.

I totaly understand that for you this is all foreign. This is not how you have viewed the world. Give me some time and I will post many examples which will prove that Quran is the Divine word. Once we establish that then we can discuss more about ideology. Mean while I strongly encoruage you to read Quran at your own. This will be helpful in our discussions.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2019 04:58 pm
@vikorr,
See video below for some advantages of praying, an act we Muslims do on daily basis.

https://youtu.be/wtTRELXPm3E

Quran does not mention its benefits, it just tells us to do it. As Muslim we believe that everything we do is for our benefit and now science is finding some medical and physical benefits of praying.

You may also know that Muslims all over the world face Kabba when they pray. For us Muslims it is just following commandment of Allah and we see it as something important to keep unity among Muslims but now we know that even in facing Kabbah there are many benefits. See video below for more details:

https://youtu.be/Z1TNHyy7t6A

I just gave two examples which are part of a Muslim's daily rituals. You can see how science proves that even trivial things in Islam benefits Muslims. Is this just a coincidence or is it the Divine wisdom? Can you figure this out at your own? Please don't jump to conclusions, verify the claims made in these videos at your own and let me know if you find anything contradicting these claims.

We have our limitations and can't make every decision which is right. Think about your own life, how many bad decisions you would have made in your life? I have made many bad choices but I know when I followed Quran I am cloder toGod and far away from evils.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2019 05:25 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
I think I did reply to your posts but may be it was not detailed enough. Let me reply again.

The 'detail' eventually wasn't the issue. The issue was, and still is to this stage, what you left out - Ie. The context. Particularly, the context relating to what you said, yet again, below:
Quote:
If we were to say that no religion in the world today is correct, then this would entail believing that God is unjust because He left us to wander about on earth in sin and transgression without showing us the right way to do things, and this is impossible for a Just God.
You argued that if there was a true religion that it must provide a guide, for if God did not provide a guide, then he would be unjust, and he cannot be unjust. You then strongly implied the only religion to provide is Islam ( so, meaning Mohammed).

I replied that God did provide us with a guide - and it was found within ourselves, in our emotional connections, our conscience etc (see full list in previous).

The obviously implication, using your own logic, is none of the religions need to be true, because God has already provided us with a guide from the beginning, so neither Islams guide, nor Christianities guide is essential to God being a just God (as he did provide us with a guide)

Quote:
Truth you are talking about is relative and changes from person to person based on their experience. You also need to see that we have our limitations. We can't see what future holds and many times we suffer by making wrong decisions.
See the future? No. But we can forecast the likely outcomes of our actions. It's easy enough to tell if I am likely to offend someone by saying certain things to them. The more honest we are with ourselves, the easier it becomes to tell what is good for us, and what isn't, what outcomes are likely, what aren't. But suffer for making wrong decisions? I hope you place this hand in hand with learning from our mistakes?

Quote:
So we are not fully capable to make 100% right decisions in our lives. We need guidance from our creator who created us because he knows us better than we know ourselves.
Are we here to beat ourselves up for not being perfect? I certainly don't think so. I think we are here to be the best we can be. And the tools he gave us allow us to learn from our mistakes, and constantly improve - should we wish to.

Quote:
Fundamentals from the beginning are the same which is to believe in one God and submit to what God says.
Fundamentals hardly make two things the same. A cat and dog both have many fundamentals in common:
- 4 legs
- tail
- head
- 2 ears
- 2 eyes
- nose
- sharp teeth
- and the list goes on extensively.
But they aren't the same.

Quote:
When we worship God, it reminds us of our purpose and we stay on the right path.
Worship of God isn't the only path to staying the right path.

Quote:
If we dont worship God, then we start following our desires which makes us followers of Satan
That would depend on what you mean by 'desires'.

Quote:
I totaly understand that for you this is all foreign. This is not how you have viewed the world.
Ummm. No. It is not foreign to me. In fact, it seems little different to me from Christianity in many respects (with of course some fairly major differences).

The thing is - every tool we need to be good people, we have given to us. Every thing we need to be happy, we have (Generally. And nor I do not mean materially). These can very simply, be found within ourselves. All it takes is willingness, honesty with yourself (honesty with yourself takes self awareness and practice), and practice (practising what you find)...and that's it.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2019 05:42 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Hi Habib,

I'm very well aware of the benefits of praying. I did daily prayers for many years. It is an effective tool, and likely more so when done several times a day.

I would suggest you read several books on how the subconscious works. All authors acknowledge how prayer affects our subconscious.

Quote:
You can see how science proves that even trivial things in Islam benefits Muslims.
And as it affects our subconscious, what can be a benefit, can also be a detriment - depending on what we focus on. Certainly the more we focus on a thing as we pray, the more we will come to believe it to be real.

On an interesting side note - related to praying in churches or mosques. I was invited to a Jehovah's Witness church many, many years ago when I was still curious enough about everyones beliefs to go and see it first hand. I walked in on what was their holiest day of the year, and was shocked that it had a palpable feeling of holiness....it was later that I found out about the autonomic nervous system / sympathetic nervous system / mirror nervous system (there seems to be different thoughts on what precisely to name the following system) the fact that the human body produces chemicals that cause our body to mimic what another person is strongly feeling (ie allowing empathy).

And back to prayer:
- meditation achieves similar results
- 'brain training' achieves similar results
- introspection and putting into practice the findings, achieves similar results

And other things try to achieve similar results:
- self hypnosis
- hypnosis (by the way, if you think hypnosis is like stage hypnosis, then you don't understand what it is)
- Neuro Linguistic Programming
- affirmations, etc
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 12:09 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Thankyou for your well known cherry picking diatribe about 'revealed science' in the Koran.* It's a pity it hasn't benefitted modern Islamic nations whose failure to thrive has led to such a the widespread diaspora of which your family was part.
You describe my atheistic comments as 'arrogant' but nothing could be more arrogant than claiming superiority for one of the multitude of belief systems which abound. That arrogance is the basis for the intolerance of Islamic countries and their primative chauvinistic governments.
So carry on arguing with alternative religionists by all means, especially if you see it as part of 'your divine duty'.I'll just sit back and watch the futile dancing !

* BTW Check out the statistics for Nobel Prizes in science by religion Wink



fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 12:58 am
@vikorr,
Word Magic =
{Hypnosis, chanting, prayer, holy writ, curses, blessings, repetition, oratory}
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 08:20 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
The main reason I don't trust Bible is because it contradicts itself on every single fundamental belief in Christianity.


You have merely repeated the same error.

You are judging the Bible by the standard of 'Christianity', not on its own merit. I ask that you give it the same benefit that you ask for the Qur'an.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 08:29 am
@izzythepush,
Izzy wrote : "Academics have long proven that that is not the case with the Bible, that it was written by men.

Whether or not these men may have been divinely inspired isn't really discussed."

Oh come now, and the Qur'an wasn't? If I recall, I think that Mohammed was told that it should never have been written down. Oops, Islam already gone afoul.

As to the second point, are you joking? Only for a few thousand years, but who's counting.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 08:52 am
@HabibUrrehman,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Religion_of_Nobel_Prize_winners.png/512px-Religion_of_Nobel_Prize_winners.png
Religion of Nobel Prize winners

NB. World theistic religion statistics.
Christian 32.5% Islam 21.5% Judaism o.4 %
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 09:15 am
@Leadfoot,
I've not made any claims about the Quran, just repeating what has already been claimed.

This is the other claim I've heard, and I'm not doing anything but repeat it. Apparently Arabic is as important visually as it is audibly. That the Quran is perfect in that there is a harmony and a symmetry to it, and it change just one word would knock everything out of whack.

The claim is that if anyone doubts the Quran is divine they should try to produce a similar piece of writing, and that nobody has ever been able to do it.

I don't speak Arabic, so I have no way of knowing if this is anything other than an idle boast.

I don't know any professors of Arabic either, let alone any who aren't Muslims.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 09:16 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

As to the second point, are you joking? Only for a few thousand years, but who's counting.


Not by objective academics it hasn't.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 09:23 am
@Leadfoot,
I do give it the same benefit as I give to Quran. In Quran I did not find any contradiction but in Bible I found many. Quran has not been changed but Bible has been.

With that said, I don't believe that Bible is 100% false and lies. There are elements of truth in it. If one reads Bible without any preconceived ideology, it is very clear that Jesus was praying to One God. He never claimed to be the son of God. That's the same message we find in Quran.

Bible can also lead one to Islam as it has prophecies about the coming of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Bible even mentioned the location where final prophet was to come. This is the reason there were many Jews and Christians in Medina and Makkah at the time of prophet Muhammad PBUH and many of them were waiting for the coming of the final prophet.
We can discuss this in depth if you are interested.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 09:52 am
@fresco,
Religion has nothing to do with noble prize. The only reason if Muslims have not won enough noble prizes is because of economics. Nobel winning research is expensive and depends on access to the best education, communication and research facilities. The vast majority of the world's Muslims live in places without access to these. In this they are hardly unique.

To put things in perspective: while there have been only 3 Nobel-winning Muslim scientists, there have also been none from all of South East Asia, none from Black Africa and only 4 from Latin America, each of which have around 600 million people. Even the number of winners from India and China is small: less than 10 from each, most of whom did their research in the West.

That said there probably are a few additional factors that are specific to the Muslim world. Science in todays Muslim world is on the whole less developed than would be expected purely based on economics (with some exceptions such as Iran and Turkey).
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 10:35 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
The 'detail' eventually wasn't the issue. The issue was, and still is to this stage, what you left out - Ie. The context. Particularly, the context relating to what you said, yet again, below:
Quote:
If we were to say that no religion in the world today is correct, then this would entail believing that God is unjust because He left us to wander about on earth in sin and transgression without showing us the right way to do things, and this is impossible for a Just God.

You argued that if there was a true religion that it must provide a guide, for if God did not provide a guide, then he would be unjust, and he cannot be unjust. You then strongly implied the only religion to provide is Islam ( so, meaning Mohammed).

I replied that God did provide us with a guide - and it was found within ourselves, in our emotional connections, our conscience etc (see full list in previous).

The obviously implication, using your own logic, is none of the religions need to be true, because God has already provided us with a guide from the beginning, so neither Islams guide, nor Christianities guide is essential to God being a just God (as he did provide us with a guide)



Islam is the religion of all prophets. Nowhere in the Bible will you find God revealing to Prophet Moses’ people or their descendants that their religion is called Judaism, or to the followers of Christ that their religion is called Christianity. In other words, the names “Judaism” and “Christianity” had no divine origin or approval. It was not until long after his departure that the name Christianity was given to Jesus’ religion.

Allah says in Quran that Muhammad PBUH is the last prophet. If he is the last prophet then there has to be someone who was the first prophet and there would be many in between. quran also tells us the Adam PBUH was the first prophet. It mentioned many others prophets who came between Adam and Muhammad PBUH like Abraham, Moses and Jesus PBUH. If I would have to live at the time of Prophet Moses then at that time his religion was Islam. By the way in Islam the Arabic word for religion is "Deen" which means way of life. If I would have to live at the time of Prophet Jesus (PBUH) then I would have followed the message he came with because that was an upgraded version of Islam. Now we need to remeber that Before Prophet Muhammad PBUH, there were several prophets who came to guide the humanity. Their message was for a particular time and for a particular group of people. No message was brought for entire humanity and none of the message was supposed to be protected by Allah because these messages were not eternal and prophet were being sent on regular basis to guide the people to the right track. After Prophet Muhammad PBUH, there is no prophet to come and that why Allah has promised to protect the final message for humanity.

Now what you are saying that each individual has been given intellect and other senses to judge what is right and what is wrong at their own. I said yes that these the tools one can use to find the truth. Why would Allah send prophets with message in previous nations if our own intellect was enough?
Quote:
Quote:
Truth you are talking about is relative and changes from person to person based on their experience. You also need to see that we have our limitations. We can't see what future holds and many times we suffer by making wrong decisions.
See the future? No. But we can forecast the likely outcomes of our actions. It's easy enough to tell if I am likely to offend someone by saying certain things to them. The more honest we are with ourselves, the easier it becomes to tell what is good for us, and what isn't, what outcomes are likely, what aren't. But suffer for making wrong decisions? I hope you place this hand in hand with learning from our mistakes?


Why you and I follow the law in a particulate country or state and not decide by our own that what is best for us? You see what this approach leads to? If stealing is bad in your perspective, it may be good justifyable for another individual. Which one of you is right and which one is wrong? Who determines that? You and God? If God needs to determine what is right and wrong for us then the law should come from God, not from you and I.

Quote:
Quote:
Fundamentals from the beginning are the same which is to believe in one God and submit to what God says.
Fundamentals hardly make two things the same. A cat and dog both have many fundamentals in common:
- 4 legs
- tail
- head
- 2 ears
- 2 eyes
- nose
- sharp teeth
- and the list goes on extensively.
But they aren't the same.


By fundamentals I mean all Abrahamic religions believe in one God, prophets, Divine guidance from God in the form of books (Torah and Injil were revealed before Prophet Muhammad PBUH) life after death, existance of angels, Satan etc. Your example is really trying to make fun of my statement even though you know exactly what I meant by it.

Quote:
The thing is - every tool we need to be good people, we have given to us. Every thing we need to be happy, we have (Generally. And nor I do not mean materially). These can very simply, be found within ourselves. All it takes is willingness, honesty with yourself (honesty with yourself takes self awareness and practice), and practice (practising what you find)...and that's it.


Using your own intelligence have you come to the conclusion that we have a creator and He is one? Have you come to the conclusion that there is life after death and have you find that out what is in the unseen world? Or have you come to the conclusion that there is no God, we came into being at our own and there is no life after death? Your intelligence alone is not enough my friend. Anyways I respect you beliefs and since God has given us free will, you are free to choose whatever you think is right.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 10:45 am
@vikorr,
I don't think you saw the videos I shared. Muslim prayer is different. It involves ablution, bowing, prostration, facing a particular direction. Each and every act was mentioned in those videos with medical benefits of each act.

I know people in several religions pray. Even those who don't believe in God, believe in meditation. This is a clear proof for connection between our soul and God.

Anyways these were just simple examples that how following adivine guidance can benefit us. Religious people have been praying for centuries, those who dont believe in God also confirm it and have included similar practices in their routines at the name of Yoga and meditation. Sure they get benefit on some level but thats only limited to this world.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 11:28 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Continuing to provide further proofs on authenticity of Quran and Islam:

FACT #3 – SUN’S ORBIT
In 1512, astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the center of the solar system and the planets revolve around it. This belief was widespread amongst astronomers until the twentieth century. It is now a well-established fact that the Sun is not stationary but is moving in an orbit around the center of our Milky Way galaxy.

Quote:
It is He who created night and day, the Sun and the Moon, each floating in its orbit. [Al-Quran 21:33]


Fact #4 - PAIN RECEPTORS PRESENT IN THE SKIN

It was thought that the sense of feeling and pain was only dependent on the brain. Recent discoveries prove that there are pain receptors present in the skin without which a person would not be able to feel pain. When a doctor examines a patient suffering from burn injuries, he verifies the degree of burns by a pinprick. If the patient feels pain, the doctor is happy, because it indicates that the burns are superficial and the pain receptors are intact. On the other hand if the patient does not feel any pain, it indicates that it is a deep burn and the pain receptors have been destroyed.

The Quran gives an indication of the existence of pain receptors in the following verse:

Quote:
Those who reject Our signs, We shall soon Cast into the Fire; As often as their skins Are roasted through, We shall change them For fresh skins, That they may taste The Penalty: for Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. [Al-Quran 4:56]


Prof. Tagatat Tejasen, Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University in Thailand, has spent a great amount of time on research of pain receptors. Initially he could not believe that the Quran mentioned this scientific fact 1,400 years ago. He later verified the translation of this particular Quranic verse. Prof. Tejasen was so impressed by the scientific accuracy of the Quranic verse, that at the 8th Saudi Medical Conference held in Riyadh on the Scientific Signs of Quran and Sunnah he proclaimed in public:

Quote:
There is no God but Allah and Muhammad PBUH is His Messenger.


Below is the video link:

https://youtu.be/X4ySKCvsWU8

To be continued...
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 11:32 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Most 'meditation' has nothing to do with the word magic of religion...in fact it is the antithesis of 'wordage' since its goal to empty the mind of internal conversation. Medical benefits are an obvious result expected of any practices which reduce anxiety. More interesting , perhaps, are the potentially detrimental mind dulling consequences of word magic, especially those which might interrupt normal sleep patterns by 'calls to prayer'. Such practices may be psychologically innocuous in closed communities like monastries, but may have as yet unquantified insiduous effects at a national level.

0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2019 11:33 am
@fresco,
Quote:
Thankyou for your well known cherry picking diatribe about 'revealed science' in the Koran


I have just started to prove Quran through science, something which many people here believe. So far I have only mentioned 4 facts in Quran which are described in Quran 1400 years ago and only proved by science very recently. There will be many more proofs which I will post in my coming posts. An honest and un biased analysis of these facts should leave one with just one option and that is to accept Islam. Please sit back as you said and watch the show.
 

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