True Religion

the only way to socially promote your particular religion versus others is to appeal to its relative social advantages, and that of course is an uphill struggle.

You argued that justice was the strongest proof of an afterlife - I viewed that as the weakest argument you had. You appear to have started with an end point in mind, again (That justice must exist). The end point appears to be tied to your belief in God (more specifically, that God must be just). So your 'logic' only supports the end point, rather than looking at what is, and coming to a conclusion.

It is not difficult to speculate on the causes of the diaspora of which you are part.

Interesting that most of the Muslims I know in the UK ignore Islamic banks.

O you who have believed, fear Allah and give up what remains [due to you] of interest, if you should be believers.
And if you do not, then be informed of a war [against you] from Allah and His Messenger. But if you repent, you may have your principal - [thus] you do no wrong, nor are you wronged. [Quran 2:278-279]

And clearly Islamic countries have failed to distribute their oil wealth across their population, in addition to having more serious 'human rites' issues.
It is not difficult to speculate on the causes of the diaspora of which you are part.

I suggest you to turn your attentions at putting your own house in order before trying to convince others. Praising Islamic attitudes to money does not sit well when the pilgrims road to Mecca is lined with child beggars.

Deuteronomy 23:19-20 English Standard Version (ESV) 19 “You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest. 20 You may charge a foreigner interest, but you may not charge your brother interest, that the Lord your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

This is not based on supposition. Its human nature to seek for justice. If you truly believe that people who do good will have same end as those who oppress others when they have power, then that is against human nature and against our own consciousness.

What you failed to see that the Divine law has never changed.

I'll say this for you though, you have made a better effort to 'debate' than any other muslim that has appeared on this forum for the last dozen years. It's a pity your reading has been confined to cherry picking.

Finally, the argument that Western nations have their own inequality problems is irrelevant to the fact that Islamic nations have their own. The onus remains with those who claim 'superiority'.

Are we talking about God, or humans here? And are we talking about justice, or revenge? These questions come down to 'What is the difference between God and Man" and 'what is justice'?

The second part is 'how can justice be applied to a dead person?'

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Is justice only about punishment? It can't be as that is the definition of revenge - unless you believe revenge is only when the wronged party exacts punishment, and not a system. But that would seriously be playing semantics. The end result would just be punishment for the sake of punishment.

Does justice have no redemptive qualities whatsoever? If so, that's hard to apply to a dead person. Redemption means a change in the status of the persons life from the moment of redemption. That can't happen if there is no ability for a change in status.

Does it have no corrective qualities whatsoever? If it has corrective qualities - how on earth does that apply to a dead person? If they can't go to heaven to live a correct life, then how can it be corrective?

Can justice be never ending torment - no. This would be plain evil. You can't be a hypocrite and say 'If A torments B forever than that is just' but if B torments C forever then that is evil. The principles of justice go in all directions.

Then there is the type of punishments available, which exist pretty much at the extreme ends of punishments - because as punishment go, you cannot do any of the following to a dead person, even raised from the dead into an afterlife:
- fine them
- take away property
- remove them from loved ones (jails do this a percentage), because their loved ones are already gone from them
- take away their life, etc.
What is left? Forms of torture? Many will not meet the requirements for heaven. Justice doesn't dictate torture for the 'just missed the boat' peoples.

And then is there not a story in the bible where a bad person - who had been bad his whole life - comes to God for forgiveness just before he dies, and God forgives him and allows him into heaven?

If so, then the difference between God's view is a moment in time involving a change of heart. Which could happen immediately in an afterlife. Where then does;
- the first (change of heart just before you die) leave the implied 'just punishment', or
-the second (didn't change your heard just before you died, but did upon being resurrected & seeing your life laid out for you) leave the implied 'just punishment'? ---------------

The point of the above is not about whether one religion is right regarding justice or another religion is correct, nor whether one religion has answers to specific points, or another religion has such answers.

The point is your claim in the quote at the top of this post. It's simplistic. There's no thought given to how the concept of 'justice' is quite a human construct, nor how all our concepts of how it should work relates to living beings. There is nothing to say God views justice in exactly the same way as humans. There is nothing to truly say that 'justice' must apply to the dead. There is nothing to say that justice can even be applied in a just manner to the dead. It appears to me to be more a form of desire for revenge, rather than justice. This is purely your own point of view. Even if held by others - it is still purely a point of view.

Obviously we are talking about God and our relationship to God

Let me go back to the topic of Justice. How do you rationalize that a war criminal like Hitler has similar end like you? If you think this is fair, then my friend you believe in the law of Jungle where might is always right. There is no need for morality because in the end everyone is going to die and be dust. It makes absolute no sense to me. If your consciousness think its fair then please explain that to me how is that fair?

Why we need to seek happiness and justice when we can't find them in the world

The answer to all this is that there has to be a life after death.

All of this relates to life after death which none of us have seen yet. If I rely on my own intellect then I have no answer to your questions because as a human being I have limitations and I can't say something for which I have no experience. This is part of unseen and knowledge of that only comes through revelation by God. That's one of the reason why we need revelation.

I can answer all the question based on my knowledge of Quran and hadiths but that's means nothing to you so there is no point.

If you don't believe in God and if you don't believe in life after death then your consciousness has been corrupted just like someone who is evil and kills others has corrupted his consciousness. Start listening to your consciousness and you will see that believe in God and hereafter in built in our system just like the ability to dintingusih between right and wrong is built within our system.

And as I said - I will always believe the patterns observable in this world, and the patterns that arise, when shown to be consistent through constant testing...over theology. In my view, God gave us a conscience, kindness, compassion, empathy etc in order to be able to see what is right and wrong. I kept running into problems between this and religion. I will believe what God gave before I believe the words of men who may, or may not have been sent from God, and mostly spoke as moved by God (in other words, their writing would still be subject to their interpretation and perspective of that 'movement').