True Religion

This is incorrect. He gave us:

- emotional ties to other people & the need to be parts of groups or society
- a conscience
- the ability to reason
- the ability to see the long term outcome of actions

People are able to access within themselves, the understanding of the right way to do things.

Many examples of this exist outside of religion, where people do things in the right way, not because of religion, but because:
- the see the outcomes of actions, and choose actions that have good outcomes; and/or
- they want to achieve something good in this life; and/or
- they want within themselves, to be good, for themself; and/or
- they just believe in doing things in the right way.

The reverse is also true, people do terrible things in the name of religion.

Sorry nonsense is nonsense even if you weave the nonsense from all major groups together nonsense is still nonsense.

The Christian or the muslin gods is no more real then any of the old gods that humans had dream up.

Why did you come on here Bill? Everyone knows you're an Atheist you've said it plenty of times.

You believe it's nonsense, the OP believes it's the truth. That's not a circle you can square.

Why come on here just to say you think someone is talking nonsense?

I don't care if people are talking nonsense or not, and you're pretty fluent in bollocks yourself. What I care about is whether or not they're preaching hate and division.

The OP isn't, they're genuine. They want to make the World better. Don't you think it's important that we engage with Muslims like that instead of ridiculing them?

I do, the alternative is to let the hate merchants and fascists win. Save your scorn and ridicule for them.

Sorry I am not just questioning the Muslims but anyone who bring their religion into the public domain.

If they do not wish to be challenge and question then they should not place their faith on the open internet.

To say nothing of placing their religion as the one an only true faith.

You're not challenging them though, you're just saying you don't swallow it. Where's the challenge in that?

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your feedback and understand that I will get variety of responses from people. As a Muslim living in US, I am very used to of such negative responses, it has become a normality unfortunately. I only take it as part of my test from Allah, may be He wants to see how strong my faith is.

My OP is only an opening statement with a claim. Burden of proof is on me as I am the one who is making this claim. My proof will be collection of many evidences. You are free to openly criticize, and inshallah (by the will of Allah) I hope that our long future discussions will leave some positive impact on everyone.

Thanks for taking your time to read my post and giving your honest feedback.

I think you are mixing two separate concepts which are relative truth and absolute truth. To say that something is relatively true means that it can be true for one person and not for another. To say that something is absolutely true means that it is independently true for all people, even if they do not know it or recognize it to be true.

Relative truth may change from person to person based on experience of each individual. Ethics, behavior, way of living are some examples of relative truth that each person holds, although they are not the only way to think or do because everyone is different.

An example of abstract truth could be color of someone's car. If the car is black then it is black for anyone.

I think you believe in relativism. In other words you believe that "truth" is whatever you believe it is. The opposite of Relativism is Absolutism. In Absolutism, only absolute truths exist, not relative truths. Absolute truth means that something can be true regardless of whether or not you believe that it is. Absolute truth means that truth is not subject to people's opinions, and people do not create truth with their personal beliefs, they only recognize it. For example, if you agree that the earth has always been a sphere even when people believe it was flat, this means you agreed with absolute truth.

Let me give another example:
-Absolute truth: "1 + 1 = 2. This is true, even if you don't understand or agree with this."
-Relative truth: "If you believe that 1 + 1 = 3 that is really true for you even if it contradicts what the laws of mathematics indicate."

This law of logic shows us that two contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time. The following examples present how two contradictory statements cannot be true at the same time, but Relativism asserts this as possible.

Let me go back to the example I gave above:

-Statement 1: "1 + 1 = 2."
-Statement 2: "1 + 1 = 3."
-Absolute truth conclusion: Statement 1 (1 + 1 = 2) is the truth. Statement 2 (1 + 1 = 3) is false. Both can't be true at the same time.
-Relative truth conclusion: 1 + 1 is equal to both 2 and 3 at the same time. Whatever you want to believe is true for you.

Similarly when we talk about God, it is an absolute truth that God is One and since God is one, the final Divine message for entire humanity also has to be one.
I mentioned in my response to some other poster that my OP is only an opening statement and I will discuss many proofs to support my POV. As always I would appreciate your thoughtful feedback to my posts.

Thanks my friend. I appreciate your support.

I think you are confusing yourself. My reply was to the below quote.


You have 3 parts to this:
- then this would entail believing that God is unjust because; (the end result)
- He left us to wander about on earth in sin and transgression; (the undebated base)
- without showing us the right way to do things (the part that would arguably make it unjust)

While the rest has some amount of debatableness attached to it - your 'logic' relied on the last part being correct. I replied to the last part, with explanation & example of things he did leave us, that could show us the way. There is 'absolute truth' in the things I said - they exist, and I doubt even you would want to argue they don't. And nor did you. Your reply pretty much avoided doing so. And I'd have to wonder why you ignored it.

But really, you cannot state something, then when shown it is incorrect, state words to the effect of 'but the fact that God is just is absolute, so what you said must somehow be wrong'. This way of thinking is, once again, starting with an ending, and looking for a path that matches your beliefs, rather than looking at what is, and coming to a conclusion.

You say you don't do this, and criticise Christians for doing so - but it really appears you do this when certain beliefs or questions are raised. That said
- you certainly don't do it anywhere near as much as some other posters.

You seem to base your argument that the Bible is false because Christianity claims that Jesus IS God.

Point blank now:. Do you see the error in this 'logic'?

Given that there is no way of proving a negative it would be the task of those supporting religions to prove such beliefs is not a fantasy.

So religion believers give us some solid proof of a god of any kind let alone the evil god of the Bible who is interest in one type of animal IE humans.

He is not supporting you he is simply getting off attacking me on any subject and thread he can find a way of doing so, as he is aware that you can not disproved a neg. no matter how silly that negative happen to be.

By the way my belief that the cat god of the universe created humans to help her take care of her subjects is just as valid as more mainspring faiths.

You've not given him a chance, you've just come on here and attacked. Why not listen to what he says, why he thinks it counts as proof. You never know he may be able to convince even one such as you.

Don't flatter yourself. I hardly ever talk to you any more. If responding to your posts is your idea of being attacked in any way on any subject and any thread, you must have really slowed right down.

Have you tried mineral supplements or kelp?

Nonsense proof is not the religion writings of people living mostly hundreds of years after the so call events.


But of natural laws being override by an act of some god there is zero proof of the earth stopping it rotation, or a man rotting body being brought back to life an so on.

There is as must proof of some god controlling the universe as there is proof of a tooth fairy existing.

I'm not telling you to talk to me. If it is nonsense why are you so reluctant to hear the OP out?

HabibUrrehman

1 REPLYREPORTThu 20 Jun, 2019 09:19 am
@knaivete,
Quote:
I cannot prove that god does not exist.

Your turn.

Please proceed to prove that god exists.


There are several arguments which can be given to prove the existence of ONE God. I will focus on three arguments namely design argument, moral argument, and Cosmological argument.

Design argument

Let me start when an example. Suppose someone finding a watch in a desert and upon opening it, they marvel at the intricate wiring and design. One can think two scenarios. One, that the watch came into existence by accident. Second, there is someone who created this watch. We all know that the first assumption is laughable. Why, the intricate design tells us that there is someone who created this watch. Now lets take this simple example and apply that on a much larger scale which is our world or universe. We see very complicate design in anything that exists around us. Even the creation of human beings has a certain design in it. For example every human being has unique finger prints. Can we say that all this is accidental? How could this intricate and complicated world be brought into existence by an ‘accident?’ A lot of care and attention would be required. Therefore, nothing, including the universe, is brought into existence by accident.

I am using more examples as evidence:

Humans constantly try to change their appearance, whether it is through contact lenses, makeup, fake eyelashes or face lifts, the fact remains that underneath all of that, they still look the same. No one can change their appearance, even through surgery, as the individual cells and DNA of a human being cannot be altered to switch to another specific job. For example, humans can dye their hair another color, such as blonde to brown, but the actual DNA cannot be altered to naturally create brown hair.

A plant cannot grow on its’ own. People give it food and water, but where does the food and water come from? They are both made on Earth but what makes them grow? Where do the nutrients and minerals required come from? Again and again, the source can be questioned. What makes the leaves green? Chlorophyll and sunlight. But where does the sunlight come from? The Sun. How did the Sun come into existence? The Big Bang Theory? What triggered the explosion?

Similarly, the Sun and Moon are kept at the correct distance from the Earth to let humans survive. What keeps them at that distance? Gravity? Who created Gravity? What causes the combustions on the surface of the Sun? Muslims believe that the Designer of everything is Allah, who is the creator and controller of the Universe.

Human beings are another example. We grow from just a blood clot into full adults with various characteristics. Proteins make us grow, but where do the proteins come from? What is the First Cause? Muslims believe this to be Allah. Also, humans breathe mechanically and automatically. If, even for a minute, we concentrated our breathing and tried to breathe, it would become difficult. Muslims believe Allah has made us this way.

Moral argument

Many times in our life, we think that ‘I ought to do this’ or ‘this is wrong.’ This is because of our conscience. Most of the time, we know what is right, yet we don’t do it. Muslims believe that all rights and wrongs come from one source: Allah who has already programmed in ever human to distinguish between the right and wrong. If we don’t follow those rights or wrongs, it is our choice and free will kicking in. Therefore, the presence of good and bad and of our conscience suggests that there is a higher power.

Cosmological argument

Science agrees that it is impossible for matter to create itself. Everything has a cause. Man, the external agency, creates a pen. Global Warming is caused by pollution and the upset of the Greenhouse Effect. A person dies because of a cause. So if everything has a cause, there must have been a First Cause without a cause, which must be Allah/God.

For example if a person has a black eye, then people know that someone has hit you, and therefore there must have been a cause/reason for them hitting you. Even humans have a cause, which are our parents. There is no such thing as an accident. The sperm fertilized the egg to produce the offspring. Whether intentional or unintentional, the fact remains that there was still a cause. Let me also discuss Big Bang theory and evolution by natural selection as these theories are related and often discussion in response to Cosmological argument.

Big Bang Theory:

Science explains the Origin of the Universe through the ‘Big Bang’ Theory. This states that the whole Universe is expanding and that it all started billions of years ago, in one place, with a huge explosion. Evidence for the Big Bang Explosion has been obtained by the detection of Microwaves, which were produced as a by-product of the event, according to Science. Also, evidence for the expansion has been obtained by the measurement of ‘Red-Shift.’ If a source of Light moves away from us, the wavelengths of the light in its spectrum are longer than if the source was not moving. For light, this is known as ‘Red-Shift’, as the wavelengths are ‘shifted’ towards the red end of the spectrum.

According to the Big Bang Theory an ‘explosion’ created the Universe. However there is not enough evidence and Science is unable to explain who provided the basic ingredients for it, or what triggered the explosion. For example, there are millions of fireworks, ammunition and bombs present in the world. But none of these go off spontaneously or without a detonating mechanism. The factors that have to be present are: Firstly, the correct ingredients in correct amounts in a suitable environment and Secondly, somebody to set off the explosion whether it be by the means of a matchstick, or the hammer of a pistol or by setting off some electric spark. Science explains none of these. It is possible that there was an explosion, but then who set it off or who created the Universe? Muslims believe it was Allah/God.

In fact, Science states that for any theory or scientific argument to have value, it must be reproducible – ‘testable, demonstrable’. If the Big Bang Theory was indeed the truth, then surely Scientists should be able to reproduce the same phenomenon in the laboratory? Some Scientists argue that the energy that was unleashed with the Big Bang was such that they do not have access to. However, if that is true, then where did the tremendous energy originate?

Quran and Muslims however do agree with parts of Big Bang theory and the fact that universe is expanding. In fact, these facts are established by science only in last 100 years but Quran mentioned those 1400 years ago

I can provide Quranic references to expanding universe and big bang theory if you need to look at those.

Evolution by Natural Selection:

Science believes in the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, founded by Charles Darwin. He made four observations: 1) All living things produce far more offspring than actually survive to adulthood. 2) In spite of this, population sizes remain fairly constant, all things being equal. 3) There is variation in members of the same species. 4) Characteristics can be passed on from one generation to the next.

Charles Darwin used these observations to conclude that all organisms were involved in a struggle for survival in which only the best-adapted organisms would survive, reproduce and pass on their characteristics, thus ‘Evolution by Natural Selection.’

Natural Selection means that the species adapted to the changes in the environment by a change in form and structure, changes which they then passed on to succeeding generations, enabling them to survive: while those species which did not adapt, became extinct.

The classic example is that of the Dinosaurs, which could not compete with smaller, more agile animals, which had miraculously evolved, thus the bigger, more slower animals became extinct, whilst the smaller, nimbler animals survived. Also, during the course of evolution, what was redundant disappeared, like tails and claws, being replaced with tail-less species with hands, which could hold, the final result being Man.

However, there are no fossils to directly link the descent of man from the same ancestor as apes and there is a constant search for what is termed as the ‘Missing Link.’ Also, there are no fossils showing definite mid steps in the transition from ape to Man. Scientists have failed to produce any new species of life in their laboratory by controlling and changing the environment. Famous examples, are those of Richard Goldschmidt and experiments on fruit flies, which have remained unsuccessful.

There are many holes in the Theory of Evolution. For example, if the Theory of Evolution were true, the nipples of male human beings would have disappeared because of inactivity thousands of years ago. However, they still remain today.

Again besides many holes in science about evolution, Muslims, as a whole, believe in evolution; there is no controversy there. The contention within Islam is the Creation of Man. Whilst Islam can accept evolution as a scientific fact, the reconciliation of the status of humanity as God’s vicegerent and the idea that humanity are primates is difficult for some. The verses of the Qur’an are also ambiguous on this matter in that they can be understood either way. Either Adam was Created separately and did not evolve, or the Creation story is allegorical, or this Creation is unique to Adam. Also, Adam could be the first man for homo sapien and other hominids evolved, or many variations on the theme. In truth there has not been any real discourse in this by both jurists and Muslim scientists. In short, Muslims do not all agree, and there is no real consensus either way.

I mentioned Quran and modern science in my response above. Muslims don't shy away from established scientific facts because they only validate that statements in Quran are correct and these have to be correct if Quran is from God. Science and Quran is a very vast subject and we can discuss this separately or you can follow my posts on this topic.