True Religion

I had enough of it as a kid.

Matthew's account is third party at best. His account fits in with what the council of Nicaea wanted Christianity to be.

So we're back to accounts by Christ's followers that Muslims don't believe.

I didn't know Islam was a monolithic being capable of speech. Does it have an address?

Don't be so vague, if you need to keep it simple just talk about what the OP is saying.

The Bible is full of crap, Luke lied to fit Jesus' birth to previous prophecies. That's already been established.

JV did not say that "Islam" accused "Bible writers" of lying about Jesus' divinity, he said they accused Jesus of lying about it. That's why I responded. My bold.

Third party?

At least he and the other disciples were there with him.
Now compare that to the Quran origin story. Talk about third party!

That's the claim, but the numbers don't add up. It was written about 70CE and given life expectancy back then it's highly unlikely he was the apostle.

Compare that to Thomas, who was there, whose gospel is very different from the canonical ones. He was exiled to India and put down as 'Doubting Thomas.'


I'm not making any claims about the Quran. However, I am aware of the divine claims that are made and of the 'proof' of its divinity.

It's claimed it was dictated to the prophet by an archangel.

Sorry. I don't accept your Islamic view which is no different from OT chauvinism. Paternal theism simply functions as rationisation of our primate inherited intstincts for males to dominate females. The liberation of women in the West followed from two main developments (1) the indispensibity of the female labour force in times of world war and (2) pharmaceutical birth control. As per the OT, restrictive dress codes imposed on women, and polygamy are further expressions of 'sexual hangups' by males attempting to regulate their primate sexuality. In a word, its 'haremism '!

BTW. My 'short reply' trumps your long one by the principle of 'Occam's Razor'.

Where should I start from? Probably let me go to Bible itself. I request you not to be emotional but answer my post below logically through your own Bible.

To a Christian, God had to take human form to understand temptation and human suffering, but the concept is not based on any clear words of Jesus. In contrast, God does not need to be tempted and suffer in order to be able to understand and forgive man’s sins, for He is the all knowing Creator of man. This is expressed in the verse:



God forgave sin before Jesus’ appearance, and He continues to forgive without any assistance. When a believer sins, he may come before God in sincere repentance to receive forgiveness. Indeed, the offer to humble oneself before God and be saved is made to all humankind.



Biblically, people can receive forgiveness of sins through sincere repentance sought directly from God. This is true at all times and in all places. There has never been a need for the so-called inter cessionary role Jesus plays in attaining atonement. The facts speak for themselves.

There is no truth to the Christian belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is only through Jesus. What about the salvation of people before Jesus? Jesus’ death brings neither atonement from sin, nor is it in any way a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus, there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions.

Let us ask the following about the man-God Jesus.

What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)?

Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose:



Did Jesus’ flesh dwell in safety after his death?
Unless Jesus’ body never underwent ‘decay’ during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo ‘decay’ then he was not truly human.
Bible says that God is not man


Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible




The Bible says that God is not a son of man

The Bible often calls Jesus ‘a son of man’ or ‘the son of man.’





In the Hebrew scriptures, the ‘son of man’ is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6-8; 3:1-3).
Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son of a man, then becoming a human being who was called ‘the son of man’, he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion. Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called ‘son of man’ specifically to distinguish them from God, who is not a ‘son of man’ according to the Bible.


The Bible says that Jesus denied he is God
Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

Jesus did not teach people that he was God
If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.
The Bible says that God is greater than Jesus


Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

Jesus never instructed his disciples to worship him



If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself
Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God.
Jesus worshipped the only true God



How did Jesus pray to God?


Who was Jesus praying to when he fell on his face?
Was Jesus crying in tears to himself pleading to be saved from death? No man, sane or insane, prays to himself! Surely the answer must be a resounding ‘No.’ Jesus was praying to ‘the only true God.’ Jesus was the servant of the One Who sent him. Can there be a clearer proof that Jesus was not God?

I did not gave Islamic view yet and you have already rejected it!

I only mentioned brief history of women in Western society. Your rejection only tells me that you want to see the world only with you glasses and with your perspective which you assume is true.

And that Christian Prophet is who? If it is Jesus PBUH then I don't accuse him. It you are talking about Paul then that's a separate issue.

We can compare what Paul preached to Jesus's teachings within the Bible and I will let you to decide if they are on the same page?

I know that. It may be because you only explored Bible more deeply. May be you never read Quran with that passion as you may have read the Bible. Anyways I understand our differences and as usual we can agree to disagree respectfully.
From our dialogue, it did conclude that you have faith in God and you do have little faith in the possibility of hereafter. Do you really think with your intelligence alone, you can find out the reality of unseen world? For example, what do you know about God. Who is God? Is He one or three in one? What does God like and what He dislikes?
Can you tell what hereafter looks like using your only intellegence? Can you tell what happens after death in the grave?

If you are denying evolution and behaviour genetics, you have have no idea how to use the word 'truth'. And as for 'glasses', mine were made in a modern laboratory, whereas yours were made in a medieval workshop. Your fantasy that such a workshop had 'access' to contemporary 'science' is blatantly grasping at straws.
I suggest you stick to the wrestling ring of comparative 'holy writ' with vikkor. After all, we all know that 'wrestling' is entertaining but 'fixed' !

In answer to all your questions - very little. I don't claim to know much if anything about such.

What I do know is what is given me, and what I can work out from it, and that such works, consistently, as a guide. What I work out differs in a number of areas from Religion. One of the things for me is that I have no problem being wrong. Many people, for whatever reason, fear being wrong, and fear their comfortable beliefs becoming uncomfortable. I don't see this as an issue. So even if I disagree, I listen. Even if I can't see a pattern, I file it (if it is of interest). Or if it clashes and has sense, I test it from multiple angles, and adopt it. Even once adopted, it's still subject to the same testing against discordance.

In relation to Islam, I cannot accept:
- repeated claims by anyone, of any race, religion, ideology, that their ideology renders them winners and all else losers. Even if it were somehow true - it should still never be said, and particularly should never be consistently repeated, due to the inherent problems such causes.
- open ended criticisms of groups of people or even individuals, particularly without qualification (I have frequently criticised people displaying these behaviours on these forums). According to beliefs of omniscience, God obviously knew how his revelations would play out and be marked down in the Quran. Then revealing them in such a way, without qualifications, is subject to the same criticism.

Once again, the above criticism does not render the nicer parts of the religion invalid, but for me, it does rule out any possibility that it was the work of God.

This of course, is just my view, and as you say, we can respectfully disagree.

I think the most revealing thing you can do in the middle of a conversation is to use the other guys argument as a rebuttal. It shows you haven’t really listened to the other guys position.

How many ******* times do I have to tell you that I don’t buy that 'trinity' crap about Jesus being God come to Earth as a man. I know the Bible doesn’t say that. I’ve said that it doesn’t. Several times.

One more point and I’m done.

If you are not both logical and emotional about your beliefs, they aren’t good enough to believe in.

That's why I am surprised that you also deny the trinity and Godship of Jesus just like Muslims do. Muslims believe in what Jesus taught and we don't just believe but we also put that into practice. If you love Jesus PBUH then only religion who truly practice the teachings of Jesus PBUH is Islam.


Now, that assertion requires an explanation, and it goes like this: To begin with, both Christianity and Islam consider Jesus to have been a prophet of their religion. However, whereas Jesus’ teachings have been lost from the creed and practices of most Christians, these same teachings are respected and evident in Islam. Let us look at some examples.
Appearance
1. Jesus was bearded, as are most Muslims, but only the rare Christian.
2. Jesus dressed modestly. If we close our eyes and form a mental picture, we see flowing robes, from wrists to ankles—much like the loose Arabian thobes and the Indio-Pakistani shalwar kameez, typical of the Muslims of those areas. What we don’t imagine is the revealing or seductive clothing so ubiquitous in Christian cultures.
3. Jesus’ mother covered her hair, and this practice was maintained among the Christian women of the Holy Land up to the middle of the twentieth century. Again, this is a practice maintained among Muslims as well as Orthodox Jews (of which Jesus was one), but not among modern day Christians.

Manners
1. Jesus focused upon salvation and eschewed finery. How many “righteous” Christians fit this “It’s not just on Sundays” profile? Now how many “five prayers a day, every day of the year” Muslims?
2. Jesus spoke with humility and kindness. He didn’t “showboat.” When we think of his speeches, we don’t imagine theatrics. He was a simple man known for quality and truth. How many preachers and how many evangelists follow this example? Just look at your own language you have been using and compare that to Jesus's teachings. You can compare mine as well if you like to. I try my best to stay away from foul language.
3. Jesus taught his disciples to offer the greeting of “Peace” (Luke 10:5), and then set the example: “Peace be with you” (Luke 24:36, John 20:19, John 20:21, John 20:26). Who continues this practice to this day, Christians or Muslims? “Peace be with you” is the meaning of the Muslim greeting, “Assalam alaikum.” Interestingly enough, we find this greeting in Judaism as well (Genesis 43:23, Numbers 6:26, Judges 6:23, I Samuel 1:17 and I Samuel 25:6).

Religious Practices
1. Jesus was circumcised (Luke 2:21). Paul taught it wasn’t necessary (Rom 4:11 and Gal 5:2). Muslims believe it is.
2. Jesus didn’t eat pork, in keeping with Old Testament law (Leviticus 11:7 and Deuteronomy 14:8). Muslims also believe pork is forbidden. Christians … well, you get the idea.
3. Jesus didn’t give or take usury, in compliance with the Old Testament prohibition (Exodus 22:25). Usury is forbidden in the Old Testament and the Quran, as it was forbidden in the religion of Jesus. The economies of most Christian countries, however, are structured upon usury.
4. Jesus didn’t fornicate, and abstained from extramarital contact with women. Now, this issue extends to the least physical contact with the opposite sex. With the exception of performing religious rituals and helping those in need, Jesus never even touched a woman other than his mother. Strictly practicing Orthodox Jews maintain this practice to this day in observance of Old Testament law. Likewise, practicing Muslims don’t even shake hands between the sexes. Can Christian “hug your neighbor” and “kiss the bride” congregations make the same claim?

Practices of Worship
1. Jesus purified himself with washing prior to prayer, as was the practice of the pious prophets who preceded him (see Exodus 40:31-32 in reference to Moses and Aaron), and as is the practice of Muslims.
2. Jesus prayed in prostration (Matthew 26:39), like the other prophets (see Nehemiah 8:6 with regard to Ezra and the people, Joshua 5:14 for Joshua, Genesis 17:3 and 24:52 for Abraham, Exodus 34:8 and Numbers 20:6 for Moses and Aaron). Who prays like that, Christians or Muslims?
3. Jesus fasted for more than a month at a time (Matthew 4:2 and Luke 4:2), as did the pious before him (Exodus 34:28, I Kings 19:8), and as do Muslims in the annual fast of the month of Ramadan.
4. Jesus made pilgrimage for the purpose of worship, as all Orthodox Jews aspire to do. The Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca is well known, and is alluded to in the Bible (see The First and Final Commandment).

Matters of Creed
1. Jesus taught the oneness of God (Mark 12:29-30, Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27), as conveyed in the first commandment (Exodus 20:3). Nowhere did he declare the Trinity.
2. Jesus declared himself a man and a prophet of God (see above), and nowhere claimed divinity or divine sonship. Which creed are the above points more consistent with—the Trinitarian formula or the absolute monotheism of Islam?

The least you can do is at least respect the fact that Muslims exemplify Jesus’ teachings more than Christians do.

Furthermore, we should remember that the Old Testament foretold three prophets to follow. John the Baptist and Jesus Christ were numbers one and two, and Jesus Christ himself predicted the third and last. Hence, both Old and New Testaments speak of a final prophet, and we would be amiss if we didn’t consider that final prophet to be Muhammad, and the final revelation to be that of Islam.



I agree with you and I am lot more emotional when it comes to religion but my emotions are mine alone. I can't use my emotions to convince others who dont have same belief as mine. Thats why I try my best to put my emotions on the side and use logic and reasoning with discussing Islam with non-Muslims. But I guess still you can see the element of my faith and love for Islam in my writings.

My advice is that if you truely need to find the truth then humle yourself, debate with respect, pray to God to open your heart (best part to pray is in the last third of the night), read Quran and I gurantee you that it will answer all of your questions.

I believe what you said above and I have found you to be an intelligent, honest and honorable person. That's just my assessment and God knows the best.



In the sight of Allah all human beings are equal because our source is one, sons of Adam and Eve. Only criteria for superiority is righteousness and submission to God's commandments. Quran says:



If you think one becomes superior just because he/she is born as a Muslim then that's wrong. Born as a Muslims means nothing until we truly believe in what Islam teaches. It is sad but it is a reality that there are many Muslims who do not value their culture more over the religion. They never read and reflect on Quran's teachings and as a result we see all sort of social problems with in Muslims countries. There are good and bad in every religion, does that make religion bad? You need to read the teachings of Quran at your own, a sincere and pure heart will find that Quran's teachings are very close to human nature. We can continue our debate forever but that's a dialogue between two imperfect human beings. Read Quran, listen to God's words and you will find answer to all of your questions.



Islam forbid accusation, slandering and liar against others ,but for criticism Islam require Muslims to converse with non-Muslims in the best manner as we are doing in our discussion so far. Did you see me preaching hate and criticism of any race or group?

That's exactly my point is. You have a very different point of view than mine. That's why I started my response to first show you the Western view of women. I had not even discussed Islamic view and you rejected that before I even said a word. That's intellectual dishonesty.

I can give a more detailed response but I know it will fall on deaf ear and blind eyes. To keep it short let me give example of just five rights which Islam gave to women centuries before the Western society:

1. Right to Vote:
Islam gave women the right to vote and historically, Muslim women were politically active. They helped shape societal rules and regulations. Women in leadership positions are mentioned in the Quran on multiple occasions. Meanwhile, in America, white women could not vote until the 1920's, while black women couldn't vote until the 1960's.

2. Right of Own property and wealth:
In America, women were denied the right to own property until 1848. They became the property of their husband after marriage along with everything they owned. The Quran not only granted women the right to own property, but also acknowledged that women were not the property of their husbands. Muslim women are not obligated to spend their earnings on anyone, while men are responsible for financially supporting their family.

Education is heavily emphasized in Islam for men and women equally. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said:

In 859 CE, the world's oldest standing university was founded by a Muslim woman, Fatima al-Fihri, in Morocco. In America, women didn't start regularly attending universities until less than a century ago.
4. The right to work or not to:
Islam gives women the right to work and earn a salary. Anything she earns while working is entitled only to her, not her husband or family. This independence is seen in Kadijah, the first woman to accept Islam after it was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Before she married the prophet, she was a well-known, successful and respected businesswoman. Equally important, Islam gives women the right not to work, if they choose. That's not the case in Western society. Men and women both work and many even after marriage keep independent and separate bank accounts.
5. Right to Modesty
Contrary to popular belief, the religious meaning behind hijab is female empowerment. We choose to cover because we respect ourselves and consider hijab a form of worship. Islam teaches us that a woman's self-worth does not revolve around physical beauty or approval from men. Islam raises women above all that and frees us from the need to conform to the societal definition of what women "should" look like.
Most importantly, hijab is for god and god alone. How a woman chooses to dress, her decision to wear hijab or not, is between her and god - not her father, brother, or the law.

On the other hand, Western culture has now focused on objectifying women. They are encouraged to show as much of their body as possible so that they can get men's attention. Does succumbing to the societal pressures to have flawless skin, long, luscious hair, a skinny and at the same time curvy body lead you a sense of purpose and respect for women? Isn't this exactly the type of thing men with no respect for women would want women to believe, so they can enjoy free eye candy every time they leave their houses? Don't women deserve to be listened to without being drooled at or judged based on their bodies and appearances?

These are a small sample of rights Islam granted women 1,400 years ago. Western society is still trying to catch up. Islam recognized women as equal in status to men, 1,400 years ago. The Quran says:
Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another." [3:195]

I have already shown the Western ideology on interest based system is nothing but a failure and crime against humanity. Would you still deal with interest? I am sure you will because just you have developed love for money and material things and it does not matter to you if such a system creates homeless people in most modern countries or kills innocent children in third world countries because their government is forced to pay the interest on international debts first and they can't afford to spend money on building any infrastructure for health care and education. If you belive this interest based system introduced by your society is the solution then you are part of the problem.

Wake up ! You are just regugitating ideological utopianism !

As an educator in the UK, I can testify that the actual situation now with respect to muslim students is one of a constant battle against the abysmal attitudes of the boys towards women in general and their mothers in particular...of absent or indifferent fathers...and of as many failed marriages as in non muslim families.


Your claim of 'superiority' of Islam with respect to social data is de facto invalid, irrespective of what the medieval Koran does or doesn't say. It is no more effective than any other version of prescriptive theology in regulating human instincts.

The facts are exactly the opposite. Lot more single mothers in the West, very high divorce rate, and rape rates are just astonishing and mind boggling for someone in right mind to persist that Western values promote rights for women.

Divorce rate in USA is 53% in 2019.

I did not find any Muslim country in this list. See links below

https://divorcescience.org/for-students/world-divorce-statistics-comparisons-among-countries/

https://www.trendrr.net/8004/countries-with-highest-divorce-rate-world-famous-lowest-india-japan/

Some statistics about single parents
Again something overwhelmingly found in Western countries, link below:

https://spacedoutscientist.com/2017/07/18/single-parents-worldwide-statistics-and-trends/

Copy pasting data for USA
Single parents in the United States
Single parents have more than tripled as a share of American households since 1960.
1 in 2 children in the United States will live with a single parent at some point in their lives.
According to the 2016 census:
27% of children under 18 live in single parent households in the US
80% of these households are headed by single mothers
More than 23% of American children are being raised without a father
4% of children are raised without their mother
Two-thirds of American single parent households are white, 1/3 are African-American and 1/4 are Hispanic. One-third have a college degree and 1/6 have not completed high school.
Marital status of American single mothers:
49% were never married
30% are divorced
17% are separated
3.5% are widowed
42% have one child and 32% have two children.
About 60% of single mothers in the US live in poverty. Only 29% of single mothers ever received child support, and the average per month received by these mothers was $432.
Marital status of American single fathers:
38% were never married
40% of single fathers are divorced
16% are separated
6% are widowed
56% have one child and 29% have two children
Single fathers are more likely to be divorced than single mothers, who are more likely to never have been married.

Statistics for rapes

Again I did not see a single Muslim country in the list. In US a woman gets raped every 107 second and this data is only for reported rapes.

https://www.trendrr.net/13049/countries-with-highest-rape-crime-famous-global-statistics/

Facts are right at your face my friend. Wake up and look into Islam with a clean and sincere heart.

The issue with arguing divorce and rape rates is:

1. Rape is generally only reported where:
- the female victim feels supported / not blaming her for being raped
- the female victim does not feel shamed by any of (her family, her community, her legal system)
- the female victim feels her complaint will be taken seriously, and investigated fully
- and is affected by the number of support services available to them

Rape reporting in all societies differs according to these things. The actual reporting rate is not naturally reflective of the actual rape rate.

2. The divorce rate has similar issues relating to whether or not a woman chooses to separate, plus:
- her ability to support herself & her children outside of her husband
- laws not favouring the husband (although in the West the criticism is the opposite, laws favouring the mother)

Rightly or wrongly, westerners views of many Islamic countries treatment of women is very negative. Rightly or wrongly, the same appears true in reverse.

Staistics are irrelevent to first hand experience. Closed communities with a tradition of 'handling' their problems internally corrupt statistical data. Tribal indoctrination with parochial social norms starts from birth, and includes attitudes to reporting 'abuse' to external authorities.

The word magic (aka 'holy writ') invented by religious intellectuals is selectively interpreted by the less intelligent rank and file. In particular 'inshallahism' seems to have been particularly soporific with repect to muslim intellectual and social development. (Hence my wake up call).

The concept of 'fate' is the problematic price humans pay for their linguistic abilities used to partially control their lives. Religions are merely formalized systems of coping with the gaps in that 'control'. They are intellectual opiates which embellish those genetically acquired societal survival mechanisms we call 'morality'

Having looked these up, there's also other things affecting the reporting rates, as rape in western countries:
- has also extended to any form of penetration
- can occur between a husband and a wife
- there is statutory rape (age of consent)

As something missed in your post - the picture isn't pretty in Egypt . In 2008 they had 20,000 rapes
and yet, on wikipedias own comparison page, Egypt isn't listed
One that page, Australia shows up as having reported rape numbers of 6382 in 2008.

In 2008 Australia was 21.25 million
In 2008 Egypt was 80.95 million
Population ratio is: 1:3.81
Multiply Australias rape numbers 6382 by the ratio, you get: 24,315

So on an population adjusted figure in 2008, we have:
- Egypt, 20000
- Australia, 24315 (with its extra definitions of rape)

I'll leave it up to you to decide which country has the more support services, shames rape victims less, blames them less etc, and how that affects reporting rates.

Do a search rape in Libya and the picture isn't pretty either

The point of this isn't to bag any particular country. It's that we should be careful about how we compare things.