17
   

Impeachment: The Process Begins

 
 
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 05:25 am
@oralloy,
It is against the law for a foreign government to interfere in an American election. Trump broke the law by asking a foreign government to investigate a political rival. He will be impeached.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 07:20 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
If we're following the constitution, the president can be impeached for bribery, treason, high crimes, or misdemeanors, all of which are violations of the law. The first step of an impeachment process should be to specify exactly which statues may have been broken.


Here is a link to the US Constitution. Can you show me where you are getting this idea? https://constitutionus.com

The charge is that the President abused his power for personal political gain. If you are going to make the argument that there is nothing wrong with this... I think this is a losing political argument (and one without Constitutional merit).
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 07:44 am
@maxdancona,
Article II, Section 4.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 07:45 am
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
Trump broke the law by asking a foreign government to investigate a political rival.

Your characterization of "investigating the Bidens" as a campaign contribution is quite a stretch.


neptuneblue wrote:
He will be impeached.

What we really need to do is impeach the next Democratic president, no matter how far in the future it may be before this happens. We need to do this regardless of whether Trump is or isn't impeached.

We should begin laying the groundwork for this impeachment right now, so that we can begin impeaching them as soon as they take office.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 07:56 am
@oralloy,
Brandon wrote:
The first step of an impeachment process should be to specify exactly which statues may have been broken.


This is the problem. Brandon's second claim is no where to be found in the Constitution. The Constition says that the House of Representatives "shall have the sole power of impeachment".

I think the argument you guys are making is that abuse of power isn't a crime. The Constitution gives the sole power to the House of Representatives to decide whether this is the case.

This is going to be a losing political argument in any case.



Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 08:22 am
High Crimes and Misdemeanors


Quote:
The offenses for which presidents, vice presidents, and all civil officers, including federal judges, can be removed from office through a process called Impeachment.

The phrase high crimes and misdemeanors is found in the U.S. Constitution. It also appears in state laws and constitutions as a basis for disqualification from holding office. Originating in English Common Law, these words have acquired a broad meaning in U.S. law. They refer to criminal actions as well as any serious misuse or abuse of office, ranging from Tax Evasion to Obstruction of Justice. The ultimate authority for determining whether an offense constitutes a ground for impeachment rests with Congress.

The exact meaning of the phrase cannot be found in the Constitution itself. Article II, Section 4, establishes, "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors." Treason and bribery are specific, but high crimes and misdemeanors is not. In fact, considerable debate occupied the Framers of the Constitution over the issue of impeachment, and the wording of the grounds for impeachment was itself controversial. A proposed offense of maladministration was rejected as being too vague and susceptible to political abuse. Finally, they chose to use a phrase from English common law that had no precisely settled meaning at the time yet at least connoted serious offenses.

The reason for the choice lies in the Framers' approach to the larger question of impeachment. Although borrowing language from the law they knew best, they explicitly chose not to imitate the English model of impeachment. Traditionally, this approach had allowed the British Parliament to conduct a simple review of charges and then remove officials by a majority vote. Instead, the Framers intended for removal from office to be the final step in a two-part process that began in the House of Representatives and, if charges should result, ended in a trial-like hearing before the U.S. Senate. Thus, two goals would be achieved: a full public inquiry into allegations, and, if necessary, the adjudication of those charges requiring a two-thirds majority for removal.

Generally, debate over the phrase high crimes and misdemeanors has split into two camps. The minority view is held by critics who undertake a literal reading of the Constitution. They maintain that high crimes means what it says—criminal activity—and argue that the Framers wanted only criminal activities to be the basis for impeachment. The generally accepted viewpoint is much broader. It defines high crimes and misdemeanors as any serious abuse of power—including both legal and illegal activities. Supporters of this reading believe that because impeachment is a public inquiry, first and fore-most, it is appropriate to read the phrase broadly in order to provide the most thorough inquiry possible. Thus, a civil officer may face impeachment for misconduct, violations of oath of office, serious incompetence, or, in the case of judges, activities that undermine public confidence or damage the integrity of the judiciary.

The vagueness of the standard has left much interpretive power to Congress. In 1868, President Andrew Johnson underwent impeachment proceedings when he ordered the firing of his secretary of war. His opponents charged that this order violated the Tenure of Office Act, which set the tenure of certain officials. Johnson escaped conviction in the Senate by only one vote, but the attempt to impeach him quickly came to be seen as a politically motivated mistake. In 1974, the House Judiciary Committee recommended that the full House of Representatives approve Articles of Impeachment against President richard m. nixon. It did not cite any single impeachable offense, but instead found a broad pattern of wrongdoing: Nixon had conspired with his advisers to obstruct federal and congressional investigations of the Watergate break-in, the burglarizing of the Democratic National Committee headquarters in Washington, D.C., which was eventually linked to the Nixon administration. Nixon resigned from office before the process could continue.

The dispute over what constitutes a high crime or misdemeanor reemerged in 1998 when the House Judiciary Committee voted to recommend that the House begin impeachment proceedings against President bill clinton. The House concurred with the recommendation, which included charges of perjury and obstruction of justice. Legal commentators debated for weeks about whether these charges were the type of high crimes and misdemeanors contemplated by the language of the Constitution, but the House nevertheless approved two of the four articles of impeachment. The trial then moved to the Senate, which failed to garner the necessary two-thirds majority to remove Clinton from office.

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/High+Crimes+and+Misdemeanors
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 09:52 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I think the argument you guys are making is that abuse of power isn't a crime. The Constitution gives the sole power to the House of Representatives to decide whether this is the case.

There are things that are not technically crime, that are still abusive of power. The police could arrest you, for example, hold you without charging you for 23 hours, release you, and then arrest you again and repeat.

That is basically what the Dems are doing by figuring out every procedure, from the Mueller investigation to impeachment, that they can use to harass Trump; and I don't even think they are doing it specifically because of Trump but more to send out a message of what people can expect who dissent from their programmatic structuring of government and economy.

In short, they are just sending out a message to anyone and everyone to say, "take your place in our structural system of society or be subjected to harassment and discrimination of every kind that hasn't been formally criminalized as explicit law."

It is a replacement of liberty, i.e. the self-governance of people in the interest of having a good and decent society, with authoritarianism, i.e. the formal regulatory prohibition of certain forms of harm while every other form of harm that's not officially prohibited is pursued in a sort of liberal free-for-all.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:08 am
@livinglava,
That's why progressives are bad for America and should be removed from society.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:17 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

That's why progressives are bad for America and should be removed from society.

There is nothing inherently wrong with any political view. You can be progressive or communist or (anti)racist/sexist, libertarian, anarchist, or whatever, as long as you don't abuse power to pursue your agenda by unconstitutional means. You have to respect that others can dissent from your views, and you shouldn't use discrimination to pressure others into conforming to your views. Not all speech is discrimination/harassment/coercion, though. Some people react against persistent pursuasive argumentation as if it was a form of force, and those people are basically implying that your free speech is a form of authoritarian power, when in fact authoritarian power is exercised precisely by demonizing free speech and arguing for its repression as being something dangerous or otherwise more powerful than it is in and of itself, i.e. separate from other forms of force/discrimination that can be used to make it coercive.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:21 am
@livinglava,
The problem with progressives is that they always abuse power whenever they acquire it.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:33 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

The problem with progressives is that they always abuse power whenever they acquire it.

You can't assume that about ALL progressives. Someone might hold progressive views, who wants to pursue them by democratic means.

It would be abusive of power to discriminate against someone who is progressive based on the assumption that other progressives abuse power therefore ALL progressives can be assumed to abuse power.

It would be just another example of prejudice and discrimination, like assuming that if some Republicans are racist, then ALL Republicans must be racist. It is the same logic as any other form of discriminatory bias/prejudice.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:46 am
@livinglava,
Interesting argument. Thanks.

I believe the prospect for Trump's impeachment by the Congress is about zero.

=> ~Seven Democrat Senators are already declared against impeachment. That and the Republican majority renders the achievement of the required 67 votes to impeach in 100 person chamber unachievable.
=> The required Trail in the Senate gives Republicans wide ranging powers to investigate related matters that may affect the President's defense. This poses serious risks for many Democrats relative to their many actions during the past three years sustaining fruitless continuous investigations of san elected President, starting before he even took office.
=> The constitution gives the President the responsibility to conduct our foreign relations and to investigate potential corruption without respect to the political proclivities of those suspected. To prove Trump's guilt in his phone conversation with the Ukrainian President (in a conversational topic started by him - and not Trump) the accusers will have also to prove Biden's innocence in his son's curious but lucrative relationship with the Burisma Petroleum company. That will drag in the younger Biden's Chinese ventures and many other issues involving the former VP. The result could well be destructive to the Democrat's prized Obama legacy as well as their current political prospects everywhere.
=> Finally proving either criminal intent by Trump or that an investigation into foreign corruption corruption was, in effect, a campaign contribution appears (to me at least) to be impossible.

As a related matter, Speaker Pelosi's decision to announce an impeachment inquiry (for which she has as yet taken no action to implement), strikes me as very curious for a seasoned politician who surely understands all of the above points. What was her real intent? Given that the chief effect so far has been the effective end of the Biden candidacy in the intense inquiry & public discussion of the strong odor of corruption in his past actions, it is at least plausible to conclude that she simply sacrificed the Biden candidacy to protect her party from more serious harm later.

Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 11:37 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I believe the prospect for Trump's impeachment by the Congress is about zero.

1. The prospect for Trump's impeachment appears to be very high and very likely to occur.

2. Remember that only the House of Representative can impeach the president.

3. On the other hand, the prospect for Trump being convicted by the Senate is virtually zero.

4. Only the Senate can convict the president.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 11:50 am
@Real Music,
Real Music wrote:

Quote:
I believe the prospect for Trump's impeachment by the Congress is about zero.

1. The prospect for Trump's impeachment appears to be very high and very likely to occur.

2. Remember that only the House of Representative can impeach the president.

3. On the other hand, the prospect for Trump being convicted by the Senate is virtually zero.

4. Only the Senate can convict the president.


So what? The phrase I used was "impeachment by the Congress", and that term, as we all likely know, includes both the House of Representatives and the Senate.
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 12:00 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
So what? The phrase I used was "impeachment by the Congress", and that term, as we all likely know, includes both the House of representatives and the Senate.

1. That changes nothing.

2. Only the House of Representatives have the constitutional authority to impeach the president.

3. The prospect for Trump's impeachment appears to be very high and very likely to occur.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 12:13 pm
@Real Music,
Notwithstanding your meaningless nit picking, even a vote to launch an Impeachment Inquiry by the House of Representatives is currently being stoutly resisted by the Speaker (with the willing assistance of many nervous House Democrats). Given that just what is the basis for your rather absurd contention that an actual Impeachment by that body is likely?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 12:21 pm
@georgeob1,
We will come back in a couple of months to see how wrong you are.

There will be a vote on articles of impeachment. They will receove Republican votes. They will pass.

When we revisit this post with the advantage of hindsight, we will see that you were enegaging in wishful thinking.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 12:27 pm
@maxdancona,
I have no sense of whether impeachment will pass or not. But either way, we need to impeach the next Democratic president as soon as they take office.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 02:15 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

I have no sense of whether impeachment will pass or not. But either way, we need to impeach the next Democratic president as soon as they take office.

Maybe they should just change the title of president to "impeachee in chief"
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2019 02:59 pm
@oralloy,
Who was the last presidwnt to be impeached?
 

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