@neptuneblue,
I do not agree that it is idiocy to refuse to plead guilty when you believe yourself to be innocent.
If a prosecutor had an actual case that Trump was guilty of campaign finance violations, and if the agreed-to penalty was some sort of fine, perhaps he would agree to a plea bargain.
As it stands now, the only case that Trump has committed such a crime relies on a pretty absurd interpretation of the law.
This is a silly argument (and off the topic of the thread). The canpaign contributions argunent has nothing to do with the Trump impeachment.
Trump will be unpeached primarily for "abuse of power". This was also part of the Nixon articles of impeachment and part of the long history of inpeachments that extends before the Constitution.
@maxdancona,
If it is an abuse of power to try to get your rivals investigated, then the Democrats all need to be removed from office. They are far more guilty of such abuses than Trump is.
@maxdancona,
Max, you're not in charge here. You don't decide what is and what is not on topic. Oralloy clearly believes it is, and if you think you can control him you're off your nut.
How about you stop trying to control what people talk about and actually address the subject.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is a silly argument (and off the topic of the thread). The canpaign [SIC] contributions argunent has nothing to do with the Trump impeachment.
You don't know that. There are multiple congressional committees looking into several avenues of corruption and criminal activity. Would you be surprised that this avenue isn't being procedurally investigated and possibly added to future charges in a long list of charges against Trump in his future impeachment investigation and trial?
@tsarstepan,
Yes. I would be surprised if this happened.
@tsarstepan,
he knows the end is near... what has he got to lose?
@maxdancona,
The best strategy for the Democrats is to focus on a simple clear narrative. That is exactly what they are doing. All these side issues are distractions.
Trump abused his power. He used his power, while acting in his capacity as head of state, for personal political gain. Then members of his administration tried to cover it up.
That is it; simple clear and direct. The Republicans strategy is to complicate things. Pelosi is too smart.
You will see the Democrats sticking on message.
It appears to me there's a good deal of whistling in the dark going on here. It is becoming clearer every day that the Democrats long ago determined to impeach President Trump and have since then merely been on a continuous search for a pretext for doing so. This is hardly in keeping with the fundamental legal principles that underlie our constitution and law, and that fact is becoming increasingly evident to most observers. Two years of Mueller investigations revealed nothing, and now they continue on a weak pretext that will likely damage former VP Biden far more than Trump.
The a priori contrivance of House Intel Committee Chairman Adam Schiff with the (still unidentified) "whistle blower" has now been confirmed, contradicting Schiff's previous deceitful denials of any involvement. The people observing all this aren't stupid (or at least not as stupid as the Democrats appear to assume), and the long term Democrat conspiracy to unseat the elected President, by any means necessary, is increasingly evident to all .
The prospect of an impeachment resolution in the House of Representatives remains highly uncertain, though the ongoing comedy will likely continue, along with the disintegrating candidacies of multiple Democrat contenders for the nomination. Beyond that the prospect of a trial in the Senate that is far more likely to uncover serious conspiratorial wrongdoing by Democrats than anything new about Trump, and almost certain to exonerate the President.
Meanwhile the new radical left is increasingly dominating the Democrat party platform, and it appears listening only to its own rhetoric, oblivious to wide spread opposition to most of its favored issues.
All this looks like the prelude to a serious Democrat defeat in the next election.
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
It is becoming clearer every day that the Democrats long ago determined to impeach President Trump and have since then merely been on a continuous search for a pretext for doing so.
It looks like the opposite to me. Trump was doing things that were pretty questionable in his first months in office and while the far left was screaming impeachment, the mainstream was ignoring it. Then the administration starting pushing it further and some Congressmen started talking impeachment, but the leadership absolutely refused. Now the administration is so far out there that the leadership has been forced to start impeachment hearings. To me it looks like the Democrats were doing whatever they could to
avoid impeachment but we're to a point where the President's actions are so egregious that they have no choice.
@georgeob1,
The "contrivance of Adam Schiff" is an untruth. The fact is that he received notice of the whisleblower. That isn't contrivance.
Which is kind of my point...
Instead of defending Trump against the charges, they are attacking everyone from the press to the Democrats to the whistleblower him or herself.
The charges that Trump abused his power for personal political gain remain unanswered.
@maxdancona,
That's not exactly true. I answered that charge when you raised it.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The charges that Trump abused his power for personal political gain remain unanswered.
Oralalalroy and his Republican consorts have turned all Oedipus on all things Trump and Trumpian criminal activities. Self-blinding to a dangerously delusional point.
@tsarstepan,
There is nothing delusional about pointing out the reality that the Democrats are a hundred times worse than any of the Republicans that they persecute.
@oralloy,
Both sides have been proven rather vile over the years.
At times of impeachment proceedings and preliminary talk of such, it tends to be those of the same party as which has a person up for inquiry and proceedings that holds the Vile title.
@georgeob1,
Quote:This is hardly in keeping with the fundamental legal principles that underlie our constitution and law, and that fact is becoming increasingly evident to most observers.
If Trump's behavior were more in keeping with the fundamental legal principles that underlie our constitution and law he wouldn't be in the position he is now.
Quote:The a priori contrivance of House Intel Committee Chairman Adam Schiff with the (still unidentified) "whistle blower" has now been confirmed, contradicting Schiff's previous deceitful denials of any involvement.
There's no evidence that Schiff "contrived" with the unidentified source. The unidentified individual sought advice on the steps he should take to report possible wrongdoing in matters which concerned the intelligence community.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:Here we go....
Impeachment is at its core a political process. There will be lot's of talk about law and principle and Constitution, but all that really counts are the votes.
The Democrats are going to make their case to the American public. If the public turns dramatically, especially in red states, then Trump will lose. The Republicans are going to try to emphasize that this is a political stunt. Of course, impeachment is always a political stunt, sometimes it is a useful and warranted political stunt.
A big part of this will be what Trump said in his phone call with the Georgian. I believe this will have to be made public (the American people will punish anything that looks like a cover up). And the whistle blower report will also come up.
The prediction markets set the odds at 52% that he will be impeached in his first term, and 31% that he will be impeached this year. The odds of conviction are at 13% with a 26% chance that he will not finish his first term (I assume people think he may resign).
In this thread, I will be focusing on the politics.
If we're following the constitution, the president can be impeached for bribery, treason, high crimes, or misdemeanors, all of which are violations of the law. The first step of an impeachment process should be to specify exactly which statues may have been broken. The next step should be to prove that these statues were broken, and that the legal violation in question is sufficiently important to warrant overturning an election.
@hightor,
hightor wrote:If Trump's behavior were more in keeping with the fundamental legal principles that underlie our constitution and law he wouldn't be in the position he is now.
Trump's behavior is already 100% in keeping with those principles. The Democrats always abuse the law to conduct witch hunts against people who disagree with them.
